Meaning of the Empress

Ayumi

le pendu said:
I had no idea that there was some factual relationship between the Empress and the moon to 15th century people! Any quick pointers?
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Hi Le Pendu,

Pretty much any pre-modern European astrology texts that relates the planets to professions lists Queens/Empresses under the rule of the Moon. Some of the popular Arab works, like Al Biruni, don't however.
Lilly's Christian Astrology is sort of the standard, but is fairly typical. It is avaliable online if you care to check it out.

The Renaissance Astrology CD Library Series available at the Renaissance Astrology website, http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/index.html has 120 books on astrology and magic, and is a great resource for this sort of stuff. This is where I steal all my good ideas from. :D

And if you have trouble sleeping, the Alchemy Website, http://www.levity.com/alchemy/index.html has a huge amount of searchable resources for research. A lot of the old pictures show beautiful Lunar Queens.

Ayumi
 

Moonbow

I read mainly from the card itself and perhaps incorporate any other information I've gathered along the way, together with my own impession of what the Empress means to me. I certainly don't see her as Earth Mother either, but she is a strong woman behind the Emperor. Infact very influential in the Emperor's decisions albeit in a 'behind the scenes' aspect. In this sense I suppose she could be seen as lunar and hidden.

I think her power is in her quiet planning and influence over the Emperor, and also (perhaps in most cases) in her blood line, and was therefore chosen for her background and connections. She's likely to be fiercely protective of her children's inheritance and is quite astute at planning the future because of this. In that sense she is powerful, as are many women behind their men.

Although the Emperor's partner in the deck, I don't see her as the softer half.

PS, lovely image Mel, and le pendu....I'm trying to picture you in that jacket. :)
 

Paul

Ayumi and others:

I'm confused. Are we not mixing Alchemy and Renaissance Astrology too directly?

To me, the Alchemical Lunar Queen and the Solar King motif refers to "married" alchemical processes and thus used lunar/solar imagery to signify such complementarity. I thought Alchemy was separate from astrology, per se, with some indirect paralells.

Sure, I know that planets and signs figure into the alchemical process, but it seems that iconographically, the two don't exactly mean the same thing-- I guess I'm saying that the Alchemical Moon and Sun motif doesn't mean exactly the same as the Moon, Sun, other planets in renaissance astrology???? Especially, iconographically, the Alchemical images may be different (and signify different things) than Renaissance Astrology, but I may be talking out of by as*!

Indeed, confused. (I see Empress as more Venus throned with Mars throned in The Emperor. The Pope is Jupiter. But, I am starting to move away from a planet-per-card or sign-per-card interpretation.)
 

kwaw

Quote:

“Funerary sculpture which displayed women of all classes in the guise of goddesses was an imitation of the portraits, in statuary and on coins, of members of the imperial family as divinities. A common choice of goddess was Venus Genetrix whose nude beauty bespoke fertility and productivity rather than sensuality. Identification with the goddess Fortuna suggested the prosperity that the woman, as matrona, contributed to her marriage through her dowry and her stewardship of her household. As Spes, the woman stood for the hoped-for continuation of the family through her offspring."
End quote from:

http://www.cnr.edu/home/araia/ClaudiaSemne.html

Empress Augusta as Venus on an imperial coin:

AugustaVenuswithApple.jpg


Kwaw
 

jmd

In terms of the Empress as Moon, it's also possible that we are inverting the anagogical principles at work.

Yes, images are quite common in both astrology and alchemy that show the Sun and the Moon as crowned figures, thereby showing them as 'Queen' and 'King' of the heavens (or at least, of the sub-eighth sphere of the fixed stars). I suspect here that Paul is correct, and that though it may be very useful and wonderful to investigate both astrological and alchemical works (both written and visual), it may be more accurate to describe all these as arising within the same cultural milieu.

The Empress within tarot would have been, I would suggest, far more literally understood, and her symbolic value attached far more to the office any individual may occupy than to the Moon. Rather, the analogy would be that the Moon can be understood by analogy as a Queen (rather than the converse - and certainly not as an Empress, something that would have been reserved more for Mary).

If any further correlation or implied meaning would have played into the imagery of Empress and Emperor, it certainly may have been by considerations from the alchemical union towards the rebis, and hence towards the phoenix ['eagle'] arising from such union. But then, this latter would also need to be understood as having Mercurial qualities.

Taking this thought further, the shields (or coat-of-arms) that show the 'phoenix'-eagle show it as mere image within an image, and not yet birthed or united and freed. Could such reflections have been seen or intended? The latter I doubt, the former, possibly with the eyes of those who saw in tarot more than most would have been either familiar with, or interested in.

The Empress's 'meaning', then, is not so much connected to either Moon or alchemical not astrological considerations, but may, via alchemical or astrological interest and considerations yield more than is present - as any exegesis yields.
 

mac22

Ayumi said:
I don't mind if you put me on the spot. It keeps me on my toes. :)

To address your question:

This really depends a lot on the question, who is asking, if the card is well placed, say sitting comfy next to VI, or poorly placed, next to XIII.

I can say I'd never really interpret this card as authority, I'd save that for the Emperor. This is from my background in Astrology, where the Queen is ruled by the Moon, only as the wife of the King, not if ruling in her own right, when she would be the Sun.

Melanchollic's Grace Kelly/Paris Hilton comment is pretty close to my view as well.

Obviously she can symbolize wives, girlfriends, daughters, mothers, anything feminine, pregnancy, menstruation, female disorders. There is some over-lap with Trumps II, XVII, and XVIII, all being feminine (either Lunar, or Venusian)

I interpret her as a generally positive indicator, but that might quickly change on a wimp. She is the younger, more naive side of feminine energy, compared to La Papess, who is older and wiser.

Taking it slightly into the less obvious, borrowing from Lilly and others:

When well placed, she could symbolize things that are liquid or associated with liquid, soft things, things of little flavor or substance, white things, new things, trends, fads, novelty, the popular opinion, compassion, accommodation, Mondays, the breasts, womb, belly, intestines.

When poorly placed she could represent lost objects, intoxicants, lack of courage, changeability, fickleness, moodiness, depression, miss placed sympathy, being too compassionate (bring home ALL the stray animals), superficial worldliness, pretensions, lack of a firm position, the status quo, materialism, and inconsistency (classic Moon association).

Yes, some of this could also be said of Trump XVIII, The Moon itself. And I do see them as somewhat interchangeable. They differ in that she is mundane and the moon is celestial. She is the way the Lunar/feminine energy actually manifest itself in the mundane world.

A lot of people prefer to see La Papess as Lunar, and The Empress as Venus. This works fine if the two cards are seen individually. But when you see them as part of a system including their partners the Pope and Emperor, La Papess works better as Venus, and the Empress as the Moon, in my experience.

That's about as much as I can say without a specific question to address. Feel free to throw one at me. :D

Ayumi
Click to expand...

Impressive! Thanks to you.... & Le Pendu for raising the issue.

I never believed/felt that 15 cent folks saw her as Mother Earth...

Mac22
 

DianeOD

Intercessor

Only speculation, but my feeling is that the Queen of heaven - 'Empress' would be considered chiefly as Intercessor, with the sexual aspect of venus being assigned elsewhere.

As the woman with power to move the Emperor - highest temporal power - she would be considered more like.. say Guan Yin.

Most of the medieval literature speaks about women in terms of their greater moral or personal beauty, and is full of exemplary types, whose honesty, integrity etc. wake up the man with power to the really important issues, such as generosity and so forth.

I'm thinking in particular of one queen - a Margaret I think - who used to take bread to the poor from the royal table. Her husband objected to her mixing with the riff-raff, and one day caught her with her over-gown full of bread. He asked to see what she was carrying - she replied "Roses" and when he insisted on seeing ... roses tumbled out (miraculous transformation - and that's why she's considered a saint).

Most female saints are appealed to in the medieval period to assist barren women, by interceding directly with God, since they are imagined all part of the celestial Court
 
The Keeper of the Pope’s Monkey. A text to share with you all, on the Marseilles Tarot