Sun and Moon Tarot v. Liber T

Hi all!

I've been craving a deck to cheat with when I get exhausted with the Thoth.

Main question: Does anyone have experience with either the Sun and Moon Tarot or the Liber T: Tarot of Stars Eternal? I've been looking at both since the beginning of the summer.

In case anyone has a similar Thoth experience to mine here, I'll put a bit more of my sentiments out there:

I love the study of the Thoth and I find it deep and rich, but honestly, most of the time I do not need a deck that is so deep. I engage with the Thoth well but I tend to look at tarot in general rather...lightheartedly. I like decks that are a bit simpler for day-to-day use. Now, when I'm particularly moody or trying to dig a little deeper, a deck like the Thoth or perhaps the Wild Unknown is the best around.

With the crazy huge amount of RWS-based decks out there (and that I have), I'd like a Thoth-based deck. One that carries over some of the spirit and assignments of the Thoth but is a much more lighthearted animal. They are, in part at least, copies, after all.

feynrir said:

With the crazy huge amount of RWS-based decks out there (and that I have), I'd like a Thoth-based deck. One that carries over some of the spirit and assignments of the Thoth but is a much more lighthearted animal.

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I don't own the Sun and Moon Tarot, and I've only ever seen it in passing, so I can't really speak to it...but I do own the Liber T, and I don't believe it's what you're seeking here. I can't imagine anyone calling it "lighthearted" -- not even as compared with the Thoth itself. In my own humble opinion, it's essentially an homage to the Thoth, but with scenic Minors. That is, instead of the numbered cards showing, say, a couple of Swords against a semi-sparse background, or a few Wands floating in space, you now have beings of various types engaged in all kinds of odd and interesting business. I believe that a consistent gripe RWS fans have with the Thoth is that the latter lacks the scenic Minors that the RWS has...and this deck is kind of addressing that gripe in its way. I happen to really, really like the Liber T...but it's not lighthearted. Among the things depicted in those new scenes, you'll occasionally find torment, slavery, and sexual acts that will seem pretty graphic to some sensibilities. I still think it's a great deck...but light, it ain't.

frac_ture said:

I don't own the Sun and Moon Tarot, and I've only ever seen it in passing, so I can't really speak to it...but I do own the Liber T, and I don't believe it's what you're seeking here. I can't imagine anyone calling it "lighthearted" -- not even as compared with the Thoth itself. In my own humble opinion, it's essentially an homage to the Thoth, but with scenic Minors. That is, instead of the numbered cards showing, say, a couple of Swords against a semi-sparse background, or a few Wands floating in space, you now have beings of various types engaged in all kinds of odd and interesting business. I believe that a consistent gripe RWS fans have with the Thoth is that the latter lacks the scenic Minors that the RWS has...and this deck is kind of addressing that gripe in its way. I happen to really, really like the Liber T...but it's not lighthearted. Among the things depicted in those new scenes, you'll occasionally find torment, slavery, and sexual acts that will seem pretty graphic to some sensibilities. I still think it's a great deck...but light, it ain't.

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Very good points, thank you

You're right, this kind of imagery is not "lighthearted." Is it odd that even after seeing all of the deck's images I still find the Liber T to be a "toned down" version of the Thoth though? It's as though the stylistic execution of the images and the pasteled colors make the Liber T look more inviting rather than challenging, despite the literal subject matter of the cards. The Thoth is perhaps the starkest deck, even just in a purely aesthetic sense, that I've ever seen.

Maybe I'm just jaded

For what it's worth - as a Thoth lover - I find the Liber T infinitely more impenetrable than the Thoth. I think I understand the Thoth as much as one can understand it after meagre years (compared to some) of periodic study but the Liber T is just totally intellectually out there. It's a deck you study and still don't understand. I think to describe it as Thoth with scenic Minors is a bit misleading. It's not the "doing things", implied by scenic Minors that you get in the Liber T, it is way beyond that - mythologically and iconographically. It isn't just people doing prosaic things like watching a harvest, it has references to myths and constellations/decans etc etc. All very deep. I've never really been able to get it - but I keep trying. So, in a nutshell, most certainly not lighthearted.

But then Sun & Moon is the other extreme for me.

Have you looked at the Rosetta? It isn't lighthearted exactly but has an upbeat mood, colouring, accessibility etc.

Le Fanu said:

For what it's worth - as a Thoth lover - I find the Liber T infinitely more impenetrable than the Thoth [...]

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This is an interesting view to hear. Something more impenetrable than the Thoth! Who knew?

I had already looked up some of the Decan symbolism and yeah, does seem like I'd have my homework cut out for me. I've read that the LWB is somewhat "cryptic" and potentially conducive to intuitive reading though, which I am absolutely okay with.

Le Fanu said:

But then Sun & Moon is the other extreme for me.

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Indeed. But boy is it cute. And I like all the negative space in the cards.

Le Fanu said:

Have you looked at the Rosetta? It isn't lighthearted exactly but has an upbeat mood, colouring, accessibility etc.

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I have! A long time ago. I vaguely remembered it and certainly not by title. It is very nice, but I will say I miss the abstract qualities of the Thoth's artwork when looking at the deck. I'll think on it Thank you.

feynrir said:

You're right, this kind of imagery is not "lighthearted." Is it odd that even after seeing all of the deck's images I still find the Liber T to be a "toned down" version of the Thoth though? It's as though the stylistic execution of the images and the pasteled colors make the Liber T look more inviting rather than challenging, despite the literal subject matter of the cards. The Thoth is perhaps the starkest deck, even just in a purely aesthetic sense, that I've ever seen.

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Well, I think Andrea Serio uses a lot less of the intricate line-work in the Liber T that adds so much to the specific feel of the Thoth. I agree with you that the Liber T therefore does somehow end up feeling rounder, warmer, smoother because of this...if those are the right words!

Le Fanu said:

I think to describe it as Thoth with scenic Minors is a bit misleading. It's not the "doing things", implied by scenic Minors that you get in the Liber T, it is way beyond that - mythologically and iconographically. It isn't just people doing prosaic things like watching a harvest, it has references to myths and constellations/decans etc etc.

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Well, I did say that the Liber T features "beings of various types engaged in all kinds of odd and interesting business" -- I didn't really say or even imply that it was showcasing anything as mundane as "people doing prosaic things like watching a harvest." But then again, with the Liber T -- maybe more than with many other decks -- it's kind of difficult to get across what it's all about without writing a full-blown review. So if my writing less than that full-blown review was misleading by omission, I do apologize to anyone who might get an erroneous impression of the deck. It's true that it does pack in lots of astrological symbolism, and also scads of mythological figures, some of whom I recognize (Persephone, Hades, and Demeter in one card...Isis and Osiris in another), and many of whom I don't. But however you slice it, I just can't imagine calling it lighthearted...

I have the Sun and Moon.
It may look cute. But it is highly poignant for me. So quiet. So clear. So gentle.

The Happy Squirrel said:

I have the Sun and Moon.
It may look cute. But it is highly poignant for me. So quiet. So clear. So gentle.

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Yeah It does seem quiet but knowing, in a way. I feel silly describing it that way because heck, the figures look like those Hallmark angels without the faces. (Google: They're 'Willow Tree Angels' by Susan Lordi.) But I do kind of find a fondness with that deck It looks pleasant, and just supple enough to really work with. Thank you for your words on it!

I use the thoth for lighthearted readings myself, so would just use that. I don't use Liber T but agree with others that this deck isn't a lighter one than Thoth. I also don't have Sun and Moon as the artwork doesn't appeal to me. I'd recommend looking at the Rosetta or the Vision Quest as alternatives to the Thoth, with a lighter flavour. I use both and find them very good trading decks. Rosetta is very close to Thoth, and Vision Quest less so.

Way outside the Thoth:

Have you checked out the PicTarot? It's really weird, but Thoth based. Here's a link:

http://pictoplasma.tictail.com/product/pictarot