Elemental Dignities Study Group Discussion & Index Thread

csdude said:

Thanks for teaching the class I think I'm starting to grasp a remedial understanding.

I came across one today that I want to make sure that I understand correctly. The spread was:

6 of Hearts (water)
9 of Swords (Air)
9 of Wands (Fire)

Am I correct that the 9 of Wands is well dignified by the 9 of Swords, even though the 9 of Swords is the focus card? Which would seem to imply that there will be a lot of worry, but that by the end of the day the worries will be resolved positively.

Note that I'm not asking for an interpretation here, per se, just trying to clarify the relationship between the 9 of Swords and 9 of Wands

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I always have to say it for others who might be reading it, but by traditional EDs, the Water and Fire cards would cancel each other out, leaving just the Air card. I don't like wasting cards, so I use them all.

The central card is strengthened (well-dignified) or weakened (ill-dignified) by the flanking cards. The flanking cards have dignity in relation to the central card, but it's not taken into consideration. So the Air card being strengthened by the Fire card is taken into consideration in interpreting the triad. The Fire card is strengthened by the Air card, but that's not taken into consideration.

So worry (9S) is strengthened by constantly being on the defensive (9W).

Does that make more sense?

Rodney

Yep, perfect sense. The focus card is strengthened or weakened by the flank cards, but the flank cards aren't strengthened or weakened by the focus card. They're there to clarify the focus card, not the other way around.

Thanks for the clarification

And as I mentioned in an earlier post, I completely agree that discarding cards entirely doesn't feel right. To me, it's especially counter-intuitive to completely disregard a Major Arcana card. Why would the cards have given me a powerfully positive card (like the Sun), just so that I'll discard it in favor of a weaker negative card? Or vice versa? Using them all (in a weaker or stronger state, based on the focus card) makes a lot more sense to me.

** Update: sorry, now I see that this was covered several weeks ago! Sorry about that. I would delete this, but I don't see an option to just delete **

This may have been covered, but I didn't see it.

How do you interpret Aces in an ED reading? I read on another site that Aces are the seeds of the suit, and aren't really an element in the suit. And that since they are powerful, they aren't weakened by other elements around them (eg, a volcano eruption wouldn't be weakened by a cup of water).

What are your thoughts on that? And if you agree with that discussion point, how would you see it when the Ace is a flank card, like in today's reading for myself:

Prince of Swords (Air)
Hanged Man (Water)
Ace of Wands (Fire)

I would usually say that the Wands would weaken the Hanged Man, but does this mean that it doesn't? Or, if it's a volcano vs a cup of water, does the Ace become more important than the focus card (engulfing the water, if you will)?

csdude said:

** Update: sorry, now I see that this was covered several weeks ago! Sorry about that. I would delete this, but I don't see an option to just delete **

This may have been covered, but I didn't see it.

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Not everyone who joins a thread reads it through from the beginning, so we'll (re)address the issue in this post.

csdude said:

How do you interpret Aces in an ED reading?

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Short answer is "Like any other card." Just as I don't give Majors extra weight when using EDs, I don't give any other card extra weight EXCEPT for the central card.

csdude said:

I read on another site that Aces are the seeds of the suit, and aren't really an element in the suit. And that since they are powerful, they aren't weakened by other elements around them (eg, a volcano eruption wouldn't be weakened by a cup of water).

What are your thoughts on that?

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While I agree about Aces being seeds, the rest of it doesn't make any sense to me. If the Ace of (the) Air (suit) isn't (part of the) Air (suit), then why is it associated with that element (suit)? In a deck where the Minors were 2-10, Page-King and an Elemental card, maybe. But most decks have an Ace or One of the suit.

csdude said:

And if you agree with that discussion point, how would you see it when the Ace is a flank card, like in today's reading for myself:

Prince of Swords (Air)
Hanged Man (Water)
Ace of Wands (Fire)

I would usually say that the Wands would weaken the Hanged Man, but does this mean that it doesn't? Or, if it's a volcano vs a cup of water, does the Ace become more important than the focus card (engulfing the water, if you will)?

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Without discussing the whole reading, I'd see the Hanged Man representing the need to look at some situation from a different perspective while the AW would indicate a desire to do something new - so reassessing a situation is weakened by wanting to start something new.

The central card is always the focal point of the reading. That card may be completely weakened by flanking cards, but that doesn't mean that either flanking card becomes the focus of the reading.

Rodney

Mistaken post

i just found this thread today and need to read thru it. cuz i have wanted to learn how to use elemental dignities, but its hard for me to remember alot of stuff with out doing it or reading it over and over again. about 14 times for a person my age. 14. strange number add it together and its a prime. and the hierophant/teacher therefore i am learning.

WOW that was deep. blew my mind.

(i am also trying to relearn math, brain has trouble with base 10) add 1 and 0 and you get the magician which means I will only be able to learn math by magic. well that sucks.

rwcarter said:

By Golden Dawn attributions, Temperance is ruled by Sagittarius, which is a fire sign.

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This is what makes stuff hard, trying to learn one thing but having to have understanding of something first, which i don't know.

rwcarter said:

I consider Earth and Fire to be neutral to one another. Traditional Golden Dawn methodology considers them to be friendly to one another. Just because there are two Earth cards, why would they weaken a friendly Fire card?

You have E1E2F. E2 is strengthened by E1 and is either neutral to or strengthened by F. E1 and F are either neutral to one another or they strengthen one another. None of the combinations are weakening.

Even in E1FE2 the F isn't weakened by E1 and/or E2. Instead I'd say that the two Earth cards provide a foundation to the Fire card, strengthening it.

Rodney

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kinda sounds like the helium atom. just a thought

firecatpickles said:

Fiery Scorpio, ruled by Mars, was "given" a water sign in order to temper it (Pliny, I think). Now I am wondering if the same idea with Judgement can be found here.. that its energy is too fiery and has to be tempered by water?

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If it was Pliny he was probably using Vesuvius and the sea for the idea. He was later killed in Pompei from Vesuvius. This would make sense how tempering fiery signs with water came about.

Since I'm going to give a presentation to my regional tarot group on Elemental Dignities later this year, I figured I would test my ideas here first. I tend to expand on the strict rules given in the Golden Dawn ED material (as published by Israel Regardie) because I think more subtleties can be found in three-card sets. I'm more in line with Jim Eshelman's viewpoint in his College of Thelema texts, and that of Elizabeth Hazel regarding flexibility in The Tarot Decoded. I put together an analysis paper on the GD rules which tries to make sense of some of the ambiguous language; I have attached it. I took a stab at applying my assumptions to the situation of a Wands Principal (or focus card) modified by all of the possible suit permutations in the adjacent cards. None of these take into account card-specific contributions as "good or evil according to their nature." (By the way, this was an excellent use for the English Magic Tarot and its element-based colored borders; I will be doing the rest of the suits as well). Photos are also attached.

Permutations of the Wands focus card (general dignities by suit):

Fire-Fire-Fire: Well-dignified

Fire-Fire-Water: Neutral per GD; strengthened by “energy flow” (2 Fires trump 1 Water)

Fire-Fire-Air: Well-dignified

Fire-Fire-Earth: Well-dignified per GD; complementary opposites produce opportunity

Water-Fire-Fire: Neutral per GD; strengthened by “energy flow” (2 Fires trump 1 Water)

Air-Fire-Fire: Well-dignified

Earth-Fire-Fire: Well-dignified per GD; complementary opposites produce opportunity

Water-Fire-Water: Ill-dignified

Water-Fire-Air: Fairly strong per GD; Water and Air combine to offset the Fire-Water weakness

Water-Fire-Earth: Well-dignified per GD; Earth and Water combine to offset Fire-Water weakness

Air-Fire-Water: Fairly strong per GD; Water and Air combine to offset the Fire-Water weakness

Air-Fire-Air: Well-dignified

Air-Fire-Earth: Neutral per GD; moderately strong due to individual compatibility of suits to Fire

Earth-Fire-Water: Well-dignified per GD; Earth and Water combine to offset Fire-Water weakness

Earth-Fire-Air: Neutral per GD; moderately strong due to individual compatibility of suits to Fire

Earth-Fire-Earth: Well-dignified