Simple Yes/No Oracle Idea

What if we consider EDs (Elemental Dignities) to make predictions answering simple specific questions requiring a Yes/No Answers? Friendly combinations would answers ‘Likely,’ while enemy combinations will says ‘Not.’ Neutral says ‘Not likely’ and same element would say ‘Most definitely Yes.’

Since a Yes/No answer is a little restrictive and rather deterministic, I like to think in some kind of ‘Various Potential Outcomes’ spread using this Yes/No system.

What do you think about this? Perhaps this isn’t a new idea.

OperaPhantom u_u,

Welcome to the Aeclectic community.

I don't believe I've seen this idea proposed yet (but I haven't kept up with every thread/spread in this forum). But it sounds like you're proposing two different things. It sounds like you're talking about a two card spread, but then it sounds like you want to incorporate those two cards into a larger spread. So you could do something like this:

...1...2...
3....4....5

where 12 is the ED interaction that determines the answer and 345 is additional info about why the answer is what it is.

Rodney

Yes/No with triplets.

Thank you Rodney.

The idea comes from what I’ve heard about certain spread, the Opening Of The Key (OOTK) used by the GD. I’ve got no much idea of how it uses, what I know about it’s only the basics. I know that part its base is the reading of the cards in triplets, that which I find very effective this readings. What I’ve herd is that this spread gives many outcomes and alternatives for the Querent. Again, I must say I only know the basics of it and I couldn’t say how is actually could happen in this kind of spread.

My idea was more o less something like this, using the idea of the triplets:

...1...
.3.2.4.
...5...

Where 1 gives a clue of an elemental background, what is the actual elemental context of the answer; 2, 3 and 4 are the triplet, where 2 is the main card and 3, 4, are thesis/antithesis like the triplets in OOTK spread, and 5 gives a Yes/No answer in combination with the main card 2.

The problem is that I can’t find a satisfactory means to this basic idea could give various outcomes and a way of give these outcomes a value of priority of ‘most likely outcome,’ ‘less likely outcome,’ ‘most likely outcome if the Querent do that or that.’

Maybe I want to do this way because I’ve seen this kind of Yes/No answers are more likely to answer why yes, or why not.


Ideas are welcome.

There's a section of Opening of the Key spreads near the bottom of post 2 of the Tarot Spreads Forum Index.

I think I understand what you're trying to get at. The elemental context of the answer doesn't make sense to me as a position though.

You could look at 125 from an active/passive perspective, which mirrors the elemental perspective. Water and Earth are passive elements while Wands and Swords are active elements. So there are a set number of combinations of active and passive cards:

3 active = Strong Yes
2 active, 1 passive = Probably
2 passive, 1 active = Probably Not
3 passive = Strong No

So, looking at 125 would give you the answer. Then you could look at 324 as the reason why and/or additional info.

Does that better get at what you were hoping for?

Rodney

Maybe four cards?

I think you would have to define what would be "friendly" and what would be "enemy". Would that be fire + air = Friendly?

You could try a four card spread:




- Yes
- Uncertain
- Uncertain
- No

and would show a preference, or lean toward, either the Yes or the No card.

Is that what you're trying to do?

In the Golden Dawn tradition:

Fire + Air = friendly
Fire + Water = unfriendly
Fire + Earth = neutral

Water + Air = neutral
Water + Earth = friendly
Water + Fire = unfriendly

Air + Fire = friendly
Air + Water = neutral
Air + Earth = unfriendly

Earth + Fire = neutral
Earth + Air = unfriendly
Earth + Water = friendly

Neutral interactions are considered friendly in the GD tradition, but for the purpose of this spread, the neutral interaction should stay neutral to bring in the maybe factor.

The Idea of Active/Pasive cards to get a Y/N answer is good, since active cards are about forces that made things actually happen or manifest, but if we ask a question for something is going to stay same way than actually is or it’s going to change in the future, it is not the type of question in which passive elements could answers ‘yes’?

What I’m trying to do is something more to a single triplet like those OOTK and the Elemental Context position would be an indicator of the Element/Qabalistic World like in the OOTK are 4 piles of card, each of one indicate the general context of the reading, like pleasure, love issues in Water pile, etc. In this spread this is indicated in the position 1. Maybe the position 5 could indicate a Yes or No by simple looking at its passive/active trait. Otherwise it could be as I say, compare its element with that of position 2 (which is actually the most important card along with the one at 1, I think).

Alternatively could it be that elemental interactions of 5 with all others (separately or in group) would give some alternative valid answers? What do you think? Though elemental interaction with the 2 would be the main answer or the main course of the events.

The idea behind all this is the very concept of EDs, I think, which says that opposite elements cancel out each other, resulting in a non-existence or “zero” condition, (i.e. ‘No’ answer), and same elements, for the contrary, are a more powerful manifestation in the various levels of existence. Friendly elements would say ‘perhaps yes, but in depends of…(look at the cards for that)’; Neutral combinations would says ‘probable not, perhaps if…(look the at cards again for that).’

O.P.

OK. I think I have a better understanding of what you're getting at. Position 1 would be the elemental association of the question, not of the answer. So a Cup would mean emotions or relationships, a Sword could mean conflict or thoughts, etc. And like the OOTK, if the elemental association of position 1 didn't line up with the question the sitter wanted answered, then you wouldn't go any further.

But I think you're asking for trouble if passive cards could sometimes mean yes and sometimes mean no. (The same goes for active cards.) Each type of card should always mean the same thing regardless of the type of question. And for questions about whether a situation will stay the same, sometimes it takes a lot of activity to keep a situation from changing. (But sometimes it doesn't take any activity at all to keep things from changing.)

I don't think you can get at a Yes or a No from just looking at the trait of one card because that way you leave out the Maybe answers.... So you could still use the suit of card 1 to verify whether or not the reading should be done, then the active/passive traits of 125 to determine the Yes/No/Maybe and finally 324 for additional info.

Rodney

The discussion so far...

Well, I decided to break this down a bit so we have:

Elemental Background

Thesis (Isn't this also "Yes"?)
Main Question
Antithesis (Isn't this also "No"?)

Yes or No

Active/Passive

* * *

How do the Elemental Dignities indicate Passive or Active when specific cards come up in this spread?

"Male" suits indicate the Active.
"Male" Courts indicate Active.

"Female" suits indicate the Passive.
"Female" Courts indicate Passive.

Major Arcana cards indicate ??

* * *

Indicating Friend or Foe or Neutral is described as above.
In the Golden Dawn tradition:

Fire + Air = friendly --> Active?
Fire + Water = unfriendly --> Active?
Fire + Earth = neutral --> Passive?

Water + Air = neutral --> Passive?
Water + Earth = friendly --> Passive?
Water + Fire = unfriendly --> Active?

Air + Fire = friendly --> Active?
Air + Water = neutral --> Passive?
Air + Earth = unfriendly --> Active?

Earth + Fire = neutral --> Passive?
Earth + Air = unfriendly --> Active?
Earth + Water = friendly --> Passive?

But since the above involves only two cards, and the spread so far uses a triplet in the middle, perhaps you would need to work out three card combinations like the above chart.

* * *

Does Passive/Active help us decide Yes or No?

Perhaps a high number of active cards would indicate a Yes.
Perhaps a high number of passive cards would indicate a No.

As mentioned above though, sometimes it is better to not make a move about something (passive) and this might be a yes, and vice versa. It seems to me card 1 could be used to start with as indicator of the *TYPE* of action, either passive or active. If all cards agree (have the same elemental) with card 1 then that's a yes, otherwise a no.

augursWell said:

Thesis (Isn't this also "Yes"?)
Main Question
Antithesis (Isn't this also "No"?)

Click to expand...

Generally I would agree with what you've written above. But if you always look at the left card as in support of (Thesis) and the right card as against (Antithesis), then you'll find yourself in an interesting conundrum when you have something like a Fire card as the main question, a Water card as in support of and another Fire card as against. Fire and Water are enemies, but if you always look at Thesis as supporting, then you have to figure out how a card that weakens the central card also supports it. The same thing with the second Fire card as Antithesis. If you only look at that position as weakening the central card, then you have the problem of figuring out how a card that should be supporting the central card can also weaken it at the same time.

If you look at Thesis/Antithesis as Yes/No or for/against, then I think you shouldn't look at passive/active for those two cards because it could just get too confusing.

augursWell said:

How do the Elemental Dignities indicate Passive or Active when specific cards come up in this spread?

"Male" suits indicate the Active.
"Male" Courts indicate Active.

"Female" suits indicate the Passive.
"Female" Courts indicate Passive.

Click to expand...

By "Male" suits, I'm guessing you mean Swords and Wands so that "Female" suits would be Pentacles and Cups? "Male" and "Female" courts are a little trickier though since most TdM or RWS-based decks have three male courts and one female court. Thoth-based decks and some newer RWS-based decks equalize the courts as two male and two female. Yes, one could just assign the Page/Knave as female or passive for the purposes of this exercise, but to me that seems a little disingenuous.

augursWell said:

Major Arcana cards indicate ??

Click to expand...

Each of the Major Arcana has an elemental association. The Golden Dawn-based associations can be found at SuperTarot among other places.

augursWell said:

Fire + Air = friendly --> Active?
Fire + Water = unfriendly --> Active?
Fire + Earth = neutral --> Passive?

Water + Air = neutral --> Passive?
Water + Earth = friendly --> Passive?
Water + Fire = unfriendly --> Active?

Air + Fire = friendly --> Active?
Air + Water = neutral --> Passive?
Air + Earth = unfriendly --> Active?

Earth + Fire = neutral --> Passive?
Earth + Air = unfriendly --> Active?
Earth + Water = friendly --> Passive?

Click to expand...

I think this becomes another rabbit hole that one could go down. I don't think that a friend/foe/neutral interaction can be used to determine Yes or No. When you have two active cards together, that's a friendly reaction, and I think it would be a Yes. But two passive cards together is also a friendly reaction, and I think that would be a No. So then you have the dilemma of sometimes having friendly reactions mean Yes and sometimes mean No. That's why I'd rather look at Active and Passive instead of Friendly/Neutral/Unfriendly.

I would read a neutral reaction as a Maybe.

I would also tend to read the unfriendly reactions as Maybes because either the active card weakens the passive card (a Yes weakening the No) or the passive card weakens the active card (a No weakening the Yes).

So looking at the 12 interactions you listed, I see two of them (Fire + Air and Air + Fire) yielding a Yes, two of them (Earth + Water and Water + Earth) yielding a No and 8 of them (the rest) yielding a Maybe. That's too heavily weighted towards Maybe for my tastes. And there's no way of determining Maybe Yes or Maybe No from the way I'm looking at those two-card interactions.

augursWell said:

But since the above involves only two cards, and the spread so far uses a triplet in the middle, perhaps you would need to work out three card combinations like the above chart.

Click to expand...

I did that in the fourth post, but I'll extrapolate a little on it here:

3 active (Fire and/or Air cards) = Strong Yes
2 active (Fire and/or Air cards), 1 passive (Water or Earth) = Probably
2 passive (Water and/or Earth cards), 1 active (Fire or Air) = Probably Not
3 passive (Water and/or Earth cards) = Strong No

There are 64 potential elemental combinations of cards when you're dealing with triplets. Removing duplicates (for the purposes of counting Active/Passive cards, FFA = FAF = AFF), there are 36 distinct combinations of Fire, Water, Air and Earth cards. But looking more closely at the breakdown of the potential triplets, I'm not sure if it's still weighted too heavily towards Maybe. It really depends on how I look at it:

There are 6 different combinations of 3 active
There are 12 different combinations of 2 active + 1 passive
There are 12 different combinations of 2 passive + 1 active
There are 6 different combinations of 3 active

So, one way of looking at it is that there are 6 ways to get a strong Yes, 12 ways to get a possibly Yes, 12 ways to get a possibly No and 6 ways to get a strong No. That weights (too?) heavily towards the Maybe answers.

The other way of looking at it is that there are 18 ways of getting a Yes or possibly Yes and 18 ways of getting a No or possibly No. That's equally balanced between the positive and negative answers.

Which way of looking at it is best? I guess that's up to the individual reader to determine.

And it might be OK for there to be more Maybe answers than Yes or No answers because for most Yes/No type questions the actions of a third party (corporeal or not) are more likely to influence the outcome.

augursWell said:

Does Passive/Active help us decide Yes or No?

Perhaps a high number of active cards would indicate a Yes.
Perhaps a high number of passive cards would indicate a No.

Click to expand...

Are you talking about with all 5 cards? I could see that. And it would work with any odd number of cards.

augursWell said:

As mentioned above though, sometimes it is better to not make a move about something (passive) and this might be a yes, and vice versa. It seems to me card 1 could be used to start with as indicator of the *TYPE* of action, either passive or active. If all cards agree (have the same elemental) with card 1 then that's a yes, otherwise a no.

Click to expand...

The first part of the above statement is really only applicable to Yes/No questions of the "Will I...?" type, right? It doesn't seem to make sense for "Will s/he...?" type questions. In the latter case whether the querent takes an active or passive stance in regard to the question will have little to no bearing on the other person's actions.

But assuming the "Will I...?" type question, I disagree that the remaining four cards have to all match the original card in terms of active/passive in order to get a Yes or No answer. You introduce a greater degree of both complexity and potential answers by looking at all five cards. I would look at the possible combinations this way:

5 Active = Strong Yes
4 Active, 1 Passive = Most Likely Yes
3 Active, 2 Passive = Maybe Yes
2 Active, 3 Passive = Maybe No
1 Active, 4 Passive = Most Likely No
5 Passive = Strong No

Rodney