Ophiuchus -- New Zodiac Sign, Change of Old Zodiac

Ffortiwn

Finally!

Edit: Hah, after all that, that blog and CNN both still managed to butcher the astronomer's name ("Parke Kunkle" instead of "Paul Kunkle").
 

Raya

In that astronomer's defense, the Star Tribune kinda spinned what he said. Here's an excerpt from an online article (http://io9.com/5733004/your-zodiac-sign-may-have-changed-this-week):

"We got in touch with Kunkle and asked him what he actually told the Star-Tribune. He said he was asked by the Star-Tribune to give them a few bits of information about astronomy, not realizing the article would become a huge discussion of astrology and the relationship between astronomy and astrology. And the main stuff he talked to the Star-Tribune about has to do with the phenomenon of 'precession.'

Says Kunkle:

'If you take a toy top and spin it, it spins around an axis and that axis tends to point in different directions. It moves around. That's what we call precession. So in Earth's case, right now, Earth's spin axis points towards Polaris, the North Star. But in 3000 BC, the Earth's axis pointed towards a different star, Thuban. And that majestic motion takes about 26,000 years. so if you went from 3,000 B.C. and waited 26,000 years, you'd have the north star Thuban again....'

And no, Parke Kunkle didn't tell the Star-Tribune that the zodiac ought to include 13 signs instead of 12 — especially since he doesn't believe in astrology at all. ... He did mention that astronomers tend to reckon the sun's position with 13 constellations instead of 12, and Ophiuchus is the 13th. But in the current astrology zodiac, there are just 12. 'I just mentioned that it's there, and astronomers actually count it... So if you actually watch the stars in the background of the sun, it actually does go through the constellation of Ophiuchus.' He adds that the Babylonians probably had totally different constellations anyway.

Somehow, Kunkle's brief comments in the Star-Tribune article got morphed into 'astronomer says the zodiac has to be revamped.' "


Typical reporting: Ask an expert for a short description of a complicated issue, draw false conclusions, and then write your report as if your conclusions are what the expert actually said.

As far as I'm concerned I am still, always have been, and always will be Andrea, regardless of whether it's because of genetics, upbringing, God, or stars. ;)
 

Minderwiz

I finally gave in to the impulse to write, if only to let of steam, so I emailed the author of the following article

http://io9.com/5733004/your-zodiac-sign-may-have-changed-this-week

Which at least tried to put some corrective light into the discussion and was sent to me by a friend.

My main point was the low journalistic standards of the Star-Tribune - a professional journalist should have checked his facts before the article was published but I took the trouble to explain that the Zodiac was an Astronomical not an Astrological development and a perfectly valid one. I also pointed out the difference between the tropical and sidereal zodiacs.

Hopefully this is going to now start to die down as common sense replaces sensational journalism.
 

Minderwiz

KariRoad said:
Other than "apparent appearance" is it not rather The Earth which "enters" a Sign?

http://lasp.colorado.edu/~bagenal/1010/graphics/sun_in_zodiac.jpg

It does seem that "Aries Day One" is an agreed reference for the Vernal Equinox,
no matter if Astronomer and/or Astrologer, when establishing the First Day of Spring.

Or perhaps not?
http://singingsun.com/wp-images/Zodiacs.jpg
Anyway, I'm happy!

No the Earth never enters a sign. The reason is that the signs are human constructs, they have no existence or meaning independent of Earth and humans. Indeed the Tropical Zodiac cannot exist on any other planet than Earth as it takes it's definition from the seasons of the Earth.

The map shown in your 'colorado; link is wrong on at least two counts. First it shows the constellations, not the signs as can be deduced from the lines linking points on the 'zodiac'. Constellations are not signs, signs are not constellations. Secondly in it's marked points for the Sun, it shows the Sun seeming to change 'signs' on the 21st of each month, in fact this doesn't happen and it can be quite early such as the 19th in some months or quite late such as the 23rd or even 24th in other months. Of course if they know they are using constellations, those could just be markers but then the diagram becomes Astrologically irrelevant. There's at least one other possible issue, the point of the Vernal equinox in sidereal terms is much earlier in Pisces than shown on the diagram - assuming they think they are indicating signs rather than constellations.

Some misguided Astrologers do try and construct heliocentric charts, which allegedly show the positions of the planets from a solar point of view projected onto the 'zodiac' - they would argue that on their basis the Earth was in Cancer at the moment, the opposite sign to the Sun (which we 'see' in Capricorn). Some programs like Solar Fire allow such charts to be generated but if you cast two charts for the same time and place, one using the heliocentric setting and one using the geocentric setting you get the SAME Ascendant and the SAME MC and the SAME Houses, which shows that the Heliocentric chart also has no meaning other than on Earth and other than in Geocentric and human terms.


There's a possible argument that the Sidereal Zodiac could have meaning on, say, Mars but that would only be so if there were humans there and a functioning society very similar to that of Earth - a few hundred astronauts would not count. As the Sidreal Zodiac has very few adherents in the West, I think we might only see an Astrological issue if Mars is colonised by a few million people of Indian origin, who practice Vedic Astrology.

One thing that is more likely to have an impact on Astrological thought is if a child is born to human parents on the Moon, or Mars (which is the only other likely planet that might be have a base established on it. In that case it would be virtually impossible to produce a Western natal chart for that child!

PS, for children who might be born on space stations in geocentric orbit, it's possible to come up with latitude and longitude of birth.

Edited to add

A little bit of research shows that the Colorado map is intended for a course in Astronomy as such it is irrelevant to Astrology as it does use constellations and not signs. It is however, also Astronomically wrong because it leaves out Ophiuchus, which it should show, as the Sun does pass in front of that constellation, which of course is the point made in the original article.

First rule of Astrology - Signs are not Constellations

see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac
 

Grigori

Right up the front of my Sunday paper, an article about astronomers (apparently the whole lot of them) calling on astronomers to reform their practice to reflect "the latest scientific findings"

I think it's grand that all we need to do to be accepted and embraced by the astronomical community is to add a 13th sign, and it's darn sporting of them to overturn centuries of animosity and division by showing the love for this new sign })

I propose the first divinatory meaning for this new sign should be "the healing of old conflicts" ;)
 

Ffortiwn

Grigori said:
an article about astronomers (apparently the whole lot of them) calling on astronomers to reform their practice to reflect "the latest scientific findings"

Surely you mean astronomers calling on astrologers?
 

KariRoad

Minderwiz said:
First rule of Astrology - Signs are not Constellations
Comfortably, then. This:
2011
VERNAL EQUINOX (SPRING) MARCH 20 2011 23:21 GMT
SUMMER SOLSTICE (SUMMER) JUNE 21 2011 17:16 GMT
AUTUMNAL EQUINOX (FALL) SEPTEMBER 23 2011 09:04 GMT
WINTER SOLSTICE (WINTER) DECEMBER 22 2011 05:30 GMT
2011
Does not equal this:
2011
Capricorn: Jan. 20 - Feb. 16
Aquarius: Feb. 16 - March 11
Pisces: March 11- April 18
Aries: April 18 - May 13
Taurus: May 13 - June 21
Gemini: June 21 - July 20
Cancer: July 20 - Aug. 10
Leo: Aug. 10 - Sept. 16
Virgo: Sept. 16 - Oct. 30
Libra: Oct. 30 - Nov. 23
Scorpio: Nov. 23 - Nov. 29
Ophiuchus: Nov. 29 - Dec. 17
Sagittarius: Dec. 17 - Jan. 20