4 suites arrangement(coins, wands,swords, cups?

jmd

Though there may indeed be an arbitrariness as to where a circle begins from a mathematical perspective, and it may be used symbolically for the Divine precisely because of the sense in which it has neither beginning nor end, some traditions have developed both for the ordering of the evangelists when depicting them around a mandorla - some of the reflections I make in the thread on XXI - Le Monde - and the ordering of the suits.

Of course, many depictions in Catholic churches follow a different, but also very specific, order. And the ordering according to their appearance in the New Testament, as mentioned by catboxer, is important.

With regards to the four suits, I have at times wondered if the visual depiction as used by the French suits has a 'better' fit then the etymological one we are so often used to reading about in books written in English. I have also mentioned similar words in the thread Swords - Intellect or Conflict, and given there one of the alternate correlations between the 'modern' (French) suits and those of Tarot (Mamluk/Spanish/Italian/Provençal).

I was particularly interested by Ross Calwell's earlier alphabetical suggestion - though did not reply at the time:
  • Atouts (trumps)
    Batons (Wands)
    Coupes (Cups)
    Deniers (Coins)
    Epées (Swords)
Such simplicity has, for me, the hallmarks of usefulness and hence possibly reflects earlier usage.

Huck's comments likewise make for deeper reflections. I remember also mentioning, either here or on LTarot or in an e.mail, the Chinese numeral ascendance as probably being the progenitor of the Mamluk suits, which eventually became the four Tarot suits. These, of course, undergo linguistic and visual transformation as they migrate from place to place... still, these become important, for sometimes remnants of important order is maintained, but the reasons for the order forgotten.

Huck's analysis of the number of 'points' upon the suits is thus another of those possibly important reflections - certainly showing that even in the pips, reflections beyond obvious gaming needs was undoubtedly made.
 

Rusty Neon

jmd said:
I was particularly interested by Ross Calwell's earlier alphabetical suggestion - though did not reply at the time:
  • Atouts (trumps)
    Batons (Wands)
    Coupes (Cups)
    Deniers (Coins)
    Epées (Swords)
Such simplicity has, for me, the hallmarks of usefulness and hence possibly reflects earlier usage.

Yes, Ross's alphabetical suggestion is indeed interesting. In fact, since the Fool isn't a trump, the alphabetical pattern extends even further, from A to F to include Fou, which sometimes appears as the 78th rather than 22nd card:

Atouts (trumps)
Batons (Wands)
Coupes (Cups)
Deniers (Coins)
Epées (Swords)
Fou (Fool)
 

Marie

I agree with the order:

Wands
Cups
Swords
Disks/Coins/Pentacles

Because it is the flow of emmanation

Wands/Father
Cups/Mother
Swords/Son
Disks/Daughter

or

Wands/First spark, ray of light
Cups/Void into which the light may fill
Swords/Soul and spirit
Disks/Earthly manifestation

Of course you could start with Cups/Mother and if you stuck to the pattern you would have the soul last and masculine and I find that I like the daughter last as earth, feminine.

Kabbalistically it works out the same, the two poles Kether and Malkuth and the other way - the pillars of mildness and mercy.

The reason I would put the pillars first is because they are the two prime dualities, Mother and Father. While Kether might be the Godhead and higher in the tree than the two pillars, and in fact the source of the two pillars it cannot be created without Malkuth, the lowest sephiroth (earth plane) on the tree, in my humble opinion.

So I guess I find Wands, Cups, Swords, Disks to be a nice flow from many directions.

Marie
 

Rusty Neon

Further to my Oct 13-03 post, for interest's sake, I'll throw another ordering into the mix:

ABCDEF

A = Arcanes [The Fool + the trumps; or, if you prefer, the trumps + The Fool]
B = Batons
C = Coupes
D = Deniers
E = Épées
F = Figures ['face' cards = court cards]

This is an working-ordering suggested and used by Jodorowsky.
 

Namadev

Ross G Caldwell said:
A clever suggestion has been the alphabet, ABCDE -

Atutti - Atouts (trumps)
Bastoni - Batons (Wands)
Coppe - Coupes (Cups)
Denari - Deniers (Coins)
Espade/Spade - Epées (Swords)

Ross

Hi Ross,

My personnal and subjective point of view...

This ordering ABCDE has my preference.
I'll add that , IF you accept the idea that the Latin Emblems have preceeded the French suits (Couleurs), THEN you can INFER that :

Bastons = Carreaux
Couppes = Coeurs
Deniers= Trèfles
Epées = Piques

I argue for "bastons=Carreaux" from the "Arrows" of the CY and the Brambilla.
The word "carreau" in French meant "la FLECHE (the arrow) de l'arbalète".

Alain

In French :

J'aperçois une emblématique guerrière dans les correspondences supposées des emblèmes/couleurs
Comme si, les carreaux provenaient des fléches offensives, les épées des cimeterres (sabres courts recourbés des Sarrazins), les deniers représentant les ECUS (boucliers ronds défensifs) tandis que les Couppes indiqueraient le sang versé.
 

jmd

Thankyou Namadev...

In my post above, I simply and without further ado with regards to the 'modern' suits, mentioned that wonderful alphabetic reflection brought by Ross Caldwell.

I have in other threads also mentioned what you bring here, and the variety of views with regards to correlations. Of course, when one uses the English term 'Clubs' (to refer to that suit), it certainly seems to be etymologically connected to 'Bastons'. And yet, the imagery seems to not fit at all.

Rather, as you mention, the correlations between Clubs and Coins seem obvious to careful similarity of depiction. As does, I would have thought, the symbolic content of Hearts and Cups.

The other two, however, are not as 'clear', for the 'carreaux'/diamonds do bear some striking similarities to the suit of Swords - especially if one looks at the shape of the ends of the scimitars (I am of course assuming, for the sake of this post, the Marseille renditions).

As for 'spade', and though of course the point does seem to suggest an instrument like a stylised sword or spear/spike, the latter is more likely - and is of course placed at the tip of a long type stick or bastons.

This gives, as correlations, the following:
  • Bastons - Spade
  • Coupes - Hearts
  • Deniers - Clubs
  • Espees - Diamonds
Nonetheless, I take your post as a wonderful addition for further discussion and important consideration.

It could of course also be, for the sake of mentioning it anew, that the suits are not connected, but arise 'simply' out of ease-of-differentiation for four differently depicted sets. The quantitative similarity will of course then exist, but perhaps no correllation is either implied nor intended.
 

Namadev

jmd said:
Thankyou Namadev...

It could of course also be, for the sake of mentioning it anew, that the suits are not connected, but arise 'simply' out of ease-of-differentiation for four differently depicted sets. The quantitative similarity will of course then exist, but perhaps no correllation is either implied nor intended.

Hi JMD,


Right.
The correlation is ONLY an inferential speculation to the best.

Alain