Alef = I-Bateleur or = Fou ?

kwaw

jmd said:
Here, the approach is not one that seeks to find all possible words that may be remotely related, but ones that seem to have, in the first instance, a more 'surface' relation. It seems to me that Mark Filipas's proposal (and, I would add, effective discovery) is that the ordering itself shows signs of a possible abecederium-type thinking.

I would agree effectively constructed; to call it a discovery Mark would have to show at least that this particular construction has a statistical significance that other possible constructions do not. While he states it appears to him to be statistically significant he has not demonstrated it to be so. Often things that appear as if they might be statistically significant prove not to be when tested according to established statistical methods. Mark does not say he has proven anything of course, he merely states that in his opionion the apparent appearance of statistical significance warrants further investigation, which presumably he is doing and I wish him the best in his researches; I would love to see such a connection proven.

On the other hand, if one makes the correlation with the Bateleur, then the very form of the letter also becomes (in this case, as with Lamed, because possible) important: which arm is up, which down, which holds the 'wand'.

Seeing the shape of the letters in the image of the cards is quite subjective and one would have to demonstrate it in more than a couple of cards to effectively demonstrate such were not anything other than accidental resemblance. I know Mark has tried to do this, but beside a resemblance between aleph and the magician and possibly hanged man and lamed I find the rest a bit of stretch and wholly unconvincing. Against these two the three figures in Judgement could be seen to form the letter Shin, which throws the sequential pattern out.

Kwaw
 

venicebard

An alternative viewpoint

I have found the Kwaw-Filipas debate herein fascinating, I must admit. And the ordinal correlation with trump content given by Filipas is rather striking... but only on the surface. For would it not be fruitful to consider letters in a broader context, that of the evolution of ideas associated poetically with the sounds, as traceable through bardic tradition and the shapes of letters in various permutations of the alphabet, namely Egyptian-Semitic-Meroitic-tifinag-Libyan-runic-and-bardic? I realize this is a relatively unexplored field (except by me), so I shall briefly illustrate.

First, consider this: if the ordinal were paramount, would not “first” outrank “last”, rather than vice versa? I am of the decided opinion that it is the cardinal that is paramount in trumps, not the ordinal, and the only tradition that gives cardinal numbers to letters is the (Irish/Welsh) bardic: H-0, A-1, E-2, I-3, O-4, B-5, M-6, P-7, F-8, K-9, G-10, T-11, D-12, N-13, L-14, R-15, S-16 (U-17, Q-18, Ii-19, Ss-20, Aa-21, these last five my surmise but easily demonstrated to be correct). The problem remains to find the exact correlation with Hebrew and other alphabets, yet this not as difficult as it appears (though it took me more than a year to solve for Hebrew, as I recall). And that there is such correlation with Hebrew is demonstrated by its perching Ii (yod) the mistletoe or loranthus in mid-air (since it is rooted in a tree, not the ground).

Now, just taking some of the letters for which the Hebrew equivalents are obvious, consider first the letter lamedh. It does indeed, in all its forms, fit ‘Temperance’ perfectly: as goad, taming the animal in us, as both ‘learning’ and ‘teaching’, as the consonant of the left (the other non-nasal liquid, R, that of the right) in Indo-European (the warrior must train more with the left to strengthen it and create a balanced strength)—its early Semitic form showing both a goad and the left nostril (nose seen from the left, reysh as right nostril being a bit more subtle, since we also see it from the left, but I won’t go into that now). And its tree-name in the bethluisnion is luis the rowan, used to tame bewitched horses AND known to shelter young of many species, which often displace it when grown. And this latter meaning, then—which goes right along with teaching or instruction (what is a school if not a sheltered environment)—is apparent in its runic shape, which shows the part of a roof extending beyond the wall of a dwelling (shelter to other species besides man). It represents learning because rowan is the month immediately following birch or childhood (see below), which begins the bardic year. All in all, there is no gap between the evolution of meaning in the letter and the quality (temperance) portrayed in the trump. Indeed, since the L or rowan month in the tree-calendar encompasses the sign aquarius the water-pourer or water-carrier, we see both why the figure is pouring from one vessel to another (water-pourer) and why it has wings strapped to its shoulder-blades (where the water-carrier would hoist the beam holding the two vessels). And since in the closed zodiac (as opposed to the broken-and-extended one extending down the legs to the feet) aquarius occurs at the spine opposite the shoulders, we immediately can see that its square-Hebrew shape is that of the arms swinging while walking, seen from above... meaning the view the mother has of her child as it learns to walk. In other words, there is a definite THEME here. In tifinag it is an image of the low-German root for ‘like’ and shows two identical vertical strokes, learning being largely a discerning of like things. (In Egyptian it is the ‘recumbent lion’—rw, used for transcribing L in foreign words, a sound missing in Egyptian—indicating that the full moon is in leo during the rowan month I guess: an image of the original Sphinx, which was carved about the time the spring equinox was in leo—most likely to commemorate the inundation that destroyed civilization, its rain-eroded head then recarved into a human one in the time of Chefren evidently.) L is intimately connected with water: it is ‘lake’ in runic and ‘a wide flood on a plain’ in the Song of Amairgen (February fill-dyke, the most moist month in Keltic Europe, when people stayed indoors and studied their lessons), temperance being a leveling and aquarius a water-pourer. And it is by gazing into a lake that we learn our own likeness.

Consider beyt. B fits V LePape in every way conceivable. First, the old Semitic character can be seen to be a miter, which was worn only by the high priest. (It can also be seen as a pointy helmet, connecting it with 5’s planetary spirit, Mars, but that’s another story.) Second, its name’s meanings are ‘house’ as in ‘house or offspring of’ and ‘temple’, the latter the setting, the former the two diminutive figures presented there to be blessed. Third, its tree, birch, by its white bark signifies ‘blessing’, and also ‘birth’, the white of purity, of what is not yet corrupted (and also of course of bleaching, 5 being the atomic number of boron, whose ore is borax). And this meaning of ‘blessing’, of the uncorrupted, identifies its place in the tree-calendar, which is the year’s rebirth, capricorn the midwinter solstice, which in the zodiac in man is the direction straight back, whose poetic meaning is straight back towards self from other (i.e. the direction completely uncorrupted by other, by the world, this showing the basically Gnostic outlook being expressed). Fourth, we see that in runic as well as Greek and Latin (i.e. our B) it shows the pregnant torso in profile, connecting it firmly with the meaning ‘house or offspring of’ and the initial purity thereby implied... and calling our attention to the mother’s arm entering the trump from the right. I could go on, but I have made my point I think.

Each letter when viewed in this way fits its trump naturally and easily. Furthermore, once the correlations have been made, a deeper layer of meaning becomes apparent that gives substance to what has long been claimed for the Hebrew alef-bet: that it reflects the actual structure of the cosmos. For the atomic number of each letter ALSO happens to fit neatly the meaning thereof, further revealing a structural pattern that strikes to the heart of the atom-type’s (atomic ‘element’s’) significance to man, to chemistry, to particle physics (wherein it delineates for example the four particle types corresponding to the four elements, photons-leptons-mesons-baryons, and their spin, charge, and classification into bosons and fermions), to organic chemistry (life in general), and so on (showing for instance that potassium and sodium marshal fluids within and without the cell respectively, that oxygen is needed to remain upright, that oxygen-silicon-aluminum are the three most prevalent in earth’s crust, and on and on). It seems to me that such ‘byproduct’ or ‘side-effect’ reinforces the original meanings (rather than distracting from them, as Sophie seems to think), given the heretofore unsubstantiated claim for Kabbalah that it embodies a deep, profound, and powerful key to the cosmos.

To swerve back into the original topic of this thread (though I’m disputing, not rationalizing, the fool’s right to alef), H’s place in the round (the zodiac) explains completely why it is no-number or no-thing. First, as hawthorn, it separates things (being the hedge par excellence): one bardic epithet is ‘Guardian of Boundaries’. And what separates things? Space. LeMat is traversing space (wandering from town to town). And hawthorn’s place in the calendar (preceding the oak of midsummer) encompasses gemini, the sign preceding cancer or straight out (straight ahead, the breasts): cancer represents the horizon before (horizon without, once we realize straight back is the horizon within, being back towards self), so gemini is what is immediately above the horizon that MAKES it a horizon: space. Even the sound (as I mentioned earlier) indicates this, when compared with other sounds: it is a wind dissipating into space, space’s sonic indication (the ethereal). Its Hebrew equivalent, cheyt, is in square Hebrew an image of the shoulders-and-arms, gemini’s station in man (one’s arms reach out into space), while its old Semitic form shows a square passage blocked by a horizontal bar: its rune and our H both show a section of fence (again, that which separates or blocks), the rune’s name being ‘hail’, which blocks the growth of plants and forces the traveler to seek shelter, thus interrupting (blocking) his journey—indeed it was probably visualized as ‘materialized space’ (just thought of this). Hail also represents the trampling feet a fence or hedge is intended to keep out of one’s garden.

Finally alef. As ox, it is the power to lift (water for irrigation). Its hieroglyph is an eagle (Egyptian vulture), which rides thermals to great height. Its tree is ailm, silver fir, which surpasses all other trees in height and strives to do so by redirecting energy from lateral to vertical growth by limiting the lateral extent of its limbs. Indeed LeBateleur is one who gets our attention and uplifts us (which are the same thing), his greatest trick no doubt being levitation (the ‘Indian rope trick’). Its Greek form (our A) points up (delta does too, but this is more accidental and stems from its Phoenician form, a jib that swings like dalet the door), while the rune shows the trunk and two branches of the fir (and is called *ansuz or aes, ‘divine being’). Indeed LeBateleur lifts his rod, as if to draw the divine energy that makes us lift our eyes. One is the atomic number of hydrogen, which has the most lift of any atom type... and is the main constituent of the heavens (space isn’t a ‘constituent’, being nothing in and of itself). Furthermore, as the first vowel it stands for the fourth or vowel stave in ogham, which explains the missing fourth leg of the table, since this was the stave ‘missing’ from ogam consaine, its older (bronze-age) consonants-only form (found worldwide). But we can see that the leg isn’t really missing but rather hidden, just as vowels were amongst bronze-age bards (speech being impossible without them).

As for creation ‘skipping’ alef to begin with beyt, the fir stands behind the birch at midwinter solstice, the rebirth of the spirit of the year, just as the yuletide fir stands behind the children under it when we distribute gifts: it is the spirit that does the creating, while the children are the beginning of that creation.

PS. I intend to return tomorrow night and comment some on the Hebrew letter-names controversy, from the perspective of a non-Hebrew-speaker who owns a Hebrew dictionary, so if that would be inappropriate, in the words of the movie The Mask, “somebody stop me!”
 

kwaw

kwaw said:
Seeing the shape of the letters in the image of the cards is quite subjective and one would have to demonstrate it in more than a couple of cards to effectively demonstrate such were not anything other than accidental resemblance. I know Mark has tried to do this, but beside a resemblance between aleph and the magician and possibly hanged man and lamed I find the rest a bit of stretch and wholly unconvincing. Against these two the three figures in Judgement could be seen to form the letter Shin, which throws the sequential pattern out.

Kwaw

While on ShYN, for those interested in word lists:

it is the root of ShYNA - second coming; sleep

other words beginning with Shin include:

ShGB - to lift up
ShV - change, reverse, something bewildering
ShY - repeat, do a second time
ShVPh - to blow
ShVPhR - trumpet
ShVPhT [and ShPhT] - judge, judgement
ShAVL [or ShYVL] - Grave [also ShChVThA]
ShKDA - asleep; corpse

Not an exhaustive list, I know there are several others meaning messenger, to rise, another meaning remnant of the faithful in the times of the messiah, which I can't remember at the moment but will look up when I have the time. I created a list of about 20 for Shin in relation to card XX some time ago but I haven't those notebooks with me at the moment. The above are simply those I remember of the top of my head.

See also the thread on Grace here:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=18800&page=4&pp=10

Kwaw
 

filipas

kwaw said:
My point was about the meaning of Lamed as 'ox goad' . . . I merely point out that according to a tract of the Talmud 'ox goad' is the meaning of the name Lamed
But you are citing an exegetical rather than a lexical source. I've never denied that meanings such as "Lamed=oxgoad" can be found in any number of works both Jewish and Gentile. Such meanings, however, are in error from a linguistical standpoint since the word LMD simply does not translate as "oxgoad", nor did it at the time of the early Tarot. Hebrew dictionaries - both modern and medieval - make this clear.

This isn't about distinguishing between Jewish and Gentile sources -- if you feel that I implied otherwise, then let me declare myself to the contrary and leave that issue to rest. More correctly, it is a distinction between exegetics and linguistics, a distinction which you seem unwilling to highlight. I am not disparaging exegetical sources (such as the Talmud); one simply does not rely upon them for linguistic fact, just as one does not rely upon lexical sources for philosophical exegesis.

Thanks,
- Mark
 

kwaw

filipas said:
But you are citing an exegetical rather than a lexical source. I've never denied that meanings such as "Lamed=oxgoad" can be found in any number of works both Jewish and Gentile. Such meanings, however, are in error from a linguistical standpoint since the word LMD simply does not translate as "oxgoad", nor did it at the time of the early Tarot. Hebrew dictionaries - both modern and medieval - make this clear.

This isn't about distinguishing between Jewish and Gentile sources -- if you feel that I implied otherwise, then let me declare myself to the contrary and leave that issue to rest. More correctly, it is a distinction between exegetics and linguistics, a distinction which you seem unwilling to highlight. I am not disparaging exegetical sources (such as the Talmud); one simply does not rely upon them for linguistic fact, just as one does not rely upon lexical sources for philosophical exegesis.

Thanks,
- Mark

I did think that one questioner did read that implication into it, and that your answer didn't particularly rectify such, thanks for clarifying it clearly.

I understand that you are only interested in the Hebrew meanings of the names of the letters, as can be found in a dictionary at the time the TdM appeared. I do not dispute that the name of the letter Lamed does not mean ox goad in Hebrew and therefore will not be found in a Hebrew dictionary; neither do I object to your methodology in doing so.

I would dispute however such an unqualified statement such as Lamed does not translate as ox goad and therefore is an linguistic error. You cannot say that 'linguistically' Lamed does not mean Ox Goad, it quite possibly does, not in Hebrew no, but the names of the Letters did not originate in Hebrew, but a closely related semitic language. A fact that is testified to by the instance of the letter Teth for example, the name of which has no meaning as a word in Hebrew. It is correct and acceptable to say that you are not using the meaning ox goad because Lamed does not have the literal meaning of such in Hebrew, and thus doesn't appear in a Hebrew dictionary; you go beyond that however when you say because it is not in a Hebrew dictionary it is 'a linguistic error'.

The quote from the Talmud uses what it considered the original non-Hebraic linguistic meaning of Lamed as 'ox goad' for the purpose of exegesis. The close relationship between Hebrew and the semitic language in which the names of alphabet originated is testified too by the fact that most of the names do have meaning, and frequently the same meaning, in Hebrew. Even where it doesn't, the relationship is often still there as in the fact that though Lamed does not mean ox-goad in Hebrew, it is the root of the word for ox goad mLMD, as Teth is the primary consonant of the word for staff MTH.

I pointed out in my initial post that your method restricts you to the literal Hebrew meanings of the names as can be found in a Hebrew dictionary, and that I have no objection to that. I only wanted to clarify that:

1) Such meanings though not in the dictionary are to found at the time in other sources such as the Talmud, kabbalistic texts and commentaries thereon;

2) Though these names do not have these literal meanings in Hebrew, in some instances such as ox-goad they may be the literal meaning of the name in the language from which the names of the alphabet derived, and of the form of letter as a pictogram; therefore it is wrong to describe them as linguistic errors simply because they are not to be found in a Hebrew dictionary. However, some of them may have developed via methods of exegesis rather than being based in linguistic roots [eg, Lamed as Ox-goad, Tzaddi as Fish Hook and Teth as staff/snake probably have some basis in linguistic roots, He as window on the other hand possibly developed through exegesis];

3) Whether or not these meanings are ultimately erroneous or not, they did not develop, as one questioner thought was implied, through the errors of gentile cabalists or later linguists, as these meanings can be found applied in Jewish sources such as the Talmud, and kabbalistic sources such as the Bahir and Zohar.

My main point however, is that the prime value of your work to me, is the exegetical value of your linguistic method. Those that work with Alef = Tau are lucky, you've done most of the work in creating word lists for them; working with Alef - Fool I have had to create my own. An example of my applying your linguistic method exegetically, that is to add or read additional layers of meaning see my post in the thread on Grace here:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=18800&page=4&pp=10

For me then the value is exegetical, not in providing evidence towards an historical alphabetical link; which as it stands I don't think it does.

Kwaw
 

mythos

I'm trying to learn ... but I can't keep reading this. Debate it may be, but it feels like fighting and I find that distressing, as well as unhelpful from a learning perspective.

Possibly hyper-sensitive mythos:(
 

Umbrae

mythos said:
I'm trying to learn ... but I can't keep reading this. Debate it may be, but it feels like fighting and I find that distressing, as well as unhelpful from a learning perspective.

Possibly hyper-sensitive mythos:(
I second that.

I’ve quickly learned that if I want to learn anything about Kabbalah, this is not the place to be. Too many egos…too little discussion.

(I’m not coming back.)

There is a Kabbalistc joke (that is quite appropriate here) that involves Ayin, but it only works with Fool as Shin.
 

Sophie

mythos said:
I'm trying to learn ... but I can't keep reading this. Debate it may be, but it feels like fighting and I find that distressing, as well as unhelpful from a learning perspective.

Possibly hyper-sensitive mythos:(
Oh Mythos :(

I'm finding the crossing of swords quite instructive. Although there is some tension, (and Venicebard coming in with: STOPYOUALLIHAVETHESOLUTIONITSBARDIC - which it might as well be, for all we know) we are reading some high quality arguments in favour of pet theories, lexicography vs exegesis and all that. Don't mind the petty lacing, it's obviously part of the Kabbalistic sport.

I feel like I'm back in Oxford witnessing two dons have it out over the port ;)

Guys - I REALLY hope you have been to have a look at Rosanne's OX/Alef in Deck Creation. She's taken up the challenge beautifully, but with fewer words. Oh, and her Ox is Magic ;)
 

wizzle

I go at the tarot/ToL thing in a different way, by starting with the question "where on the ToL does this card belong?" Up? Down? Middle? And the fact that zero is a relatively "new" concept doesn't mean you shouldn't try to fit it onto the ToL (along with the planets beyond Saturn).

One concept in ToL is very very clear. It all starts with ..... nothing... soph. And so, to me, zero is about as close to nothing/soph as you can get. Hence, the Fool goes right up there at the top.

And I realize that the patriarcal view of the ToL was impetus/male leading to materialization/female, but for me the ToL unfolds, rather in the manner of a book with both outter pillars created simultaneously. It is also three dimensional and spins, creating the planes which correspond to the chakras.

And, naturally, 0 = 1 is all about fractal math and iteration. Now, if only I could find a good place for the square root of 2.

The whole "which letter equals which card" arguement strikes me as only a secondary correspondence. If we examine what came first, I see things as
1 - planets (can't get around those)
2 - astrology and it's concepts (a tool to understand the above)
3 - qabala (a tool for sythesizing metaphysical concepts including astrology) with sephira of primary importance with paths/letters as secondary (by a long shot)
4 - tarot (a tool for using the concepts)

Remember too, that the guys who wrote about the qabala thought that an old guy with a beard is a great symbol for kether, which just says a whole lot about where they were coming from.
 

kwaw

Helvetica said:
I feel like I'm back in Oxford witnessing two dons have it out over the port ;)

I do love port, but don't indulge too frequently as it brings on the Gout. But I have gone through a fews cans of ****.

Where's this fight everyone's on about btw... I seem to have missed it;)

Kwaw