The Tarot symbols origin

I'm not laying money on how good or bad this book might be. Could be terrible; hope it's not.

I do understand the temptation to judge a book by its cover or its web page, as the case may be.

I think everyone benefits from an editor. I am an editor myself. On the other hand, my dearest is dyslexic and his ideas are no less interesting for the terrible spelling. So I don't worry overmuch about typos, especially in materials that are self-published as this seems to be, and I suspect by a self-taught author.

People with uneven or little experience, contacts, resources--I don't judge someone's work under these circumstances by a few typos, and I think it is unfair to judge the person themselves. If someone comes to a forum like this, reads a criticism of their web page and fixes the mistakes, or decides to invite others to discuss their ideas, I think that's great, but if they don't, I can't see that it reflects on their character one way or another.

I've said before, there is a real sense in which tarot does have "ancient Egyptian" origins, insofar as the Mamluk cards with their swords, sticks, coins and cups are the basis for tarot decks. And the old trumps include many images that are not simply Christian--older than Christianity, or outside it. So there's also this sense in which the tarot imagery is more ancient than the Christian(ized) stories.

eta: So that's it for me. I don't care if the author fixes his typos. I don't really understand why that's so important to Ross (I follow your reasoning, Ross, but I disagree with your judgment). I'll be interested if the author does comes in to discuss his ideas. I like when people publish books, regardless.

Debra said:

I've said before, there is a real sense in which tarot does have "ancient Egyptian" origins, insofar as the Mamluk cards with their swords, sticks, coins and cups are the basis for tarot decks.

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Since when are Turkish Mamluks of the Muslim religion considered ancient Egyptians? Are polo sticks an ancient Egyptian artifact? It is this kind of erroneous conflation of materials and lack of understanding by some tarot authors and commentators that causes so much angst to historians.

I'm willing to make allowances for typos and errors in some books and websites, but it does make me question the material and wonder about other errors. In which case, I am going to scrutinize the material very carefully - if I care enough about the topic to bother.

A publisher should realize that many readers, especially the most scrupulous and the most respected reviewers, are not going to be satisfied with their product. A significant part of the job of a publisher is to edit a book carefully and bring the material up to editorial standards. Neither the publisher nor the author benefits from errors.

Typos were perhaps more excusable in the days of hand-set or even machine-set type, but today there is no excuse with the power of modern grammar-and-spelling checkers. Microsoft Word doesn't like ANYTHING even mildly out of the ordinary (which is why I use Open Office, it's the best thing since WordPerfect - and free!). With electronic publishing, I would bet publishers have laid off most of their army of proofreaders, and the remainder have only a cursory knowledge of the author's language. I've been appalled at what passes for professional writing in many popular magazines. I also see sloppy editing as reflecting a too-casual attitude toward the quality of the finished product. But then, in my former career as a professional technical writer, typos in written instructions could result in serious equipment damage or severe personal injury. No one is going to die from "odering" this book (but they might still regret doing so.)

Teheuti said:

Since when are Turkish Mamluks of the Muslim religion considered ancient Egyptians?

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Mary, I'm saying simply that those who assert Egyptian origins have a point--it's not a whole-cloth fabrication. "Ancient" is the misunderstanding.

I bring this up because I object when people are tarred as deliberately obtuse, stupid and deluded for beliefs that don't fall in line, and especially when they hold a simple, unelaborated belief that does have a factual basis. I appreciate the experts' frustration. However, I don't know of many people writing today who believe that ancient Egyptian mysteries are encoded in the tarot, or that the cards came from [Egyptian] gypsies, etc. Mostly these are old misunderstandings, and harmless, and it just seems to me that the "constant vigilance!" against barbaric ignorance of tarot history is overwrought.

And if they are current misunderstandings, or elaborate theories built on flimsy foundations, still, why attack the author personally?

Just got a pm:

There's a long history of people burning books.
Some of them were probably very crappy books.
Some of them were poorly written, and poorly researched.
Some of them probably had a lot of typos.
Maybe the authors were too stupid and greedy to bother correcting them.
But while history has forgotten the crappiness of those books,
history remembers the people who burned them.
And none of those people are exalted or honored for that action.

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A good point I think.

A brief discussion of card from the Egyptian sultanate, the World of Playing Cards site: http://www.wopc.co.uk/egypt/mamluk/index.html

Debra said:

My point being that those who believe there's Egyptian origins to tarot have a point--it's not a whole-cloth fabrication. "Ancient" is the misunderstanding.

A brief discussion of card from the Egyptian sultanate, the World of Playing Cards site: http://www.wopc.co.uk/egypt/mamluk/index.html

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My point being that there is a huge difference between Muslim cards in an Arabic style and "origins in ancient Egypt." This distinction is not always clear precisely because of mistaken ideas or errors in expression.

Thanks for the reference to that page. I hadn't seen it recently and so had missed the update of translations for the Arabic inscriptions. What I find absolutely fascinating is that anyone using a deck of cards with those aphorisms written on them would assume that getting a specific card was a form of prediction:

“With the sword of happiness I shall redeem a beloved who will afterwards take my life."
"Thou shalt have a pleasant life."
"O my heart, for thee the good news that rejoices."
"The alif rejoices and fulfils your wishes."

It's nice that all the comments seem to be positive.

Debra said:

I don't know of many people writing today who believe that ancient Egyptian mysteries are encoded in the tarot, or that the cards came from [Egyptian] gypsies, etc. Mostly these are old misunderstandings, and harmless, and it just seems to me that the "constant vigilance!" against barbaric ignorance of tarot history is overwrought.

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You must not keep up with all the Tarot books and articles that have been published in the past 15 years, nor check regularly on new websites.

No one is suggesting that the book should be burned. But, I know I would feel "burned" if I spent $70 on a badly written/edited book claiming to reveal the Tarot's true origins that was the just same old "Tarot comes from ancient Egypt" story.

Debra, are you willing to bet your money on the value of this book? I'm not.

If a forum dedicated to Historical Research in Tarot History and Iconography is not an appropriate place for 'constant vigilance' against ignorance regarding Tarot history - then I guess no place is! It seems like you are saying that no one has the right to question anyone else's theories, nor should there be any standards. I just don't agree!

If I may add my 2 cents' in this topic, which I find most interesting: The origins of Tarot is an area of both historical research and speculation that seems to have fired up people's imaginations to a great degree.

Although there is ample proof that the Tarot as we know it, was invented somewhere in Italy sometime in the first decades of the 15th century, I think it's safe to say that nothing is invented in isolation or in a vacuum. It's quite obvious to me that one can trace "origins" of anything to the past. Perhaps it's a matter of semantics, in the end, but one could, for example, trace the "origins" of television to the early 19th century with the advent of photography. Is television photography? In a sense it is, but it's also something quite separate from photography. Something new and different.

In my opinion, tracing the origins of television to photography is valid. Speculating that because television is a series of frames and Egyptian hieroglyphs also depict series of "frames", then television can be traced to ancient Egypt, is more than overindulgence. It's at best... fantasy. It's certainly not history in any sense of the word.

The problem is that many people also project their own spiritual beliefs on the tarot, and there is nothing wrong with that per se. Most of us enjoy the mystery of tarot in one form or another. Where did it come from? What does the Major Arcana sequence mean? What is the meaning of the coins falling out of the Hanged Man's pockets?

Perhaps the apparent "conflict" between schools of thought about the tarot's origins has to do with right-left brain thinking. Both are valid, in my opinion, but when one invades the other's "dominion" then problems arise.

Which brings me to the book in question: Personally, I can forgive a few typos here and there, or a slightly higher price for a self-published book (or tarot deck, or whatever) and despite the fact that I cannot easily afford any new books or tarot decks (living in a country in the midst of a severe financial crisis), I would be willing to scrape up enough money to buy a book that promises to shed new light on the history of a subject I find most fascinating, like the Tarot! Or a book that talks about the spirituality of tarot in a new and interesting way. Tarot is so wonderful because it can be molded within, or mold, anyone's ideas about "life, the universe and everything". It's the ultimate subjective way to reach, perhaps, objectivity. It's also a fantastic spiritual path, and a practical tool that can help people.

Still, when I'm considering the purchase of a new book, there are a few standards that I need to know the book upholds *beforehand*. Also, I need to ask myself the following question: Is this book better than another book? Would it be a better investment of my money if I bought something else? Are there strong indications that the author of the book actually offers something new, interesting and, ultimately, "enlightening"? Is the price tag justified by the publication itself?

I have to ask myself these questions, or similar ones, and answer them before I buy anything.

Regarding the book in question, I find the $70 price tag chaotically exorbitant. For that amount of money, I can buy several tarot decks, AND a couple of books that may be much more useful to me.
The fact that the publication itself is nothing but a small paperback of around 150 pages, full of photos with, presumably, little text, makes me wonder how the author has managed to condense his/her theory into such a small volume. Even a cursory web search will reveal hundreds of websites, blogs, forums, magazines, etc., about the history of tarot, many of which have such a wealth of information that one can peruse them for years with no end in sight.
Of course, the author of this book may have developed the most amazing theory about the origins of tarot that no other source ever did before. It IS possible! And I'd be willing to consider buying such a book, if it were not so expensive and IF the author - like thousands before him - could have given me a small glimpse of what to expect from the book. Just a peek of his light, so to speak. Perhaps the first chapter, or an excerpt?
But I don't get even that and yet I'm asked (theoretically speaking, not literally) to shell out over $70 for a tiny book full of photographs, about which I know nothing except what's contained in a blurb... I'm sorry but I'm not willing to do that. This is like organising a concert for a completely unknown singer, whose music no one has ever heard, and asking for a ticket price more expensive than Madonna and Lady Gaga combined.
Personally, I wouldn't go to such a concert. If the singer is the voice of the 21st century then I'll wait until the first reviews come out, until radio stations play her songs, and only then will I give my money to see her live. The same goes for the book in question.

(And I definitely have to stop using so many similes and metaphors).

An exemple of honnest work and information

Marseilles 19th August 2012

Hello all,

To reply to Dain that I do follows 100 % in his declarations, here is an example of work performed by a friend of mine Wilfried:

http://www.tarot-de-marseille-millennium.com/english

He expose in his book a complete theory on tarot history with:
Sources in addendum
Long texts. 242 pages
Various good iconographic sources.
Shows many pages of this book on his website in French and English.
Is published by an editor who accepted his work after he examined it.
Reply to any questions upon request.

I don't know if his hypothesis is good but I estimate that his work is honest and need to be known.

Up to now only in French this book could be soon edited in English: Some discussions are running.

If book we talks on this thread had been presented like this, it would have face less critics for sure.

Have a nice sunday,

Yves LM

Yves Le Marseillais said:

Marseilles 19th August 2012

Hello all,

To reply to Dain that I do follows 100 % in his declarations, here is an example of work performed by a friend of mine Wilfried:

http://www.tarot-de-marseille-millennium.com/english

He expose in his book a complete theory on tarot history with:
Sources in addendum
Long texts. 242 pages
Various good iconographic sources.
Shows many pages of this book on his website in French and English.
Is published by an editor who accepted his work after he examined it.
Reply to any questions upon request.

I don't know if his hypothesis is good but I estimate that his work is honest and need to be known.

Up to now only in French this book could be soon edited in English: Some discussions are running.

If book we talks on this thread had been presented like this, it would have face less critics for sure.

Have a nice sunday,

Yves LM

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Hallo, Yves.
That's exactly what I meant! Your friend's presentation of his book has given me both a taste and a perfectly clear idea of what to expect from his book. I would have absolutely no "fear" of buying his book, and the price is quite rational too (even though my French is a bit rusty, I'm afraid). Still, the website provides all the information needed to make an informed decision about this book in a manner that I can certainly call professional and respectable (regardless of whether one will agree or disagree with the theory presented in the book). It's proof of a lot of thought and work that went into the book by its author.

Debra said:

I like when people publish books, regardless.

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As a Librarian, I support this point-of-view. But, I am not compelled to purchase every work published, however interesting it might be.

Pax et Bonum

CED