I Trionfi origins?

I see your point, frelkins, but I think it is actually the other way around.

The "triumph meme" was HUGE from the mid-14th through the 16th centuries at least - theological, literary (Petrarch, Boccaccio, and others), historical (Biondo), artistic (illustrations of Petrarch and other uses of triumphal imagery), and of course ceremonial and festive uses ("real" triumphs, floats in parades, etc.) - but if you read the literature about these triumphs and triumphal themes, there is never any mention of tarot. The background - Buffy's background as it were - is all there, but nobody talks about Buffy. It's like everybody had Buffy, and everybody had the contextual information for Buffy, but nobody thought to put them together for a very long time.

The reason is because the scholars of the late middle ages and Renaissance didn't know, and still generally don't know, that tarot was originally called "triumph", so nobody thought, before Gertrude Moakley in the mid-1950s, to inform the study of tarot's trumps with all of this rich triumphal background from the same time and place.

Ross

Ross G Caldwell said:

The reason is because the scholars of the late middle ages and Renaissance didn't know, and still generally don't know, that tarot was originally called "triumph", so nobody thought, before Gertrude Moakley in the mid-1950s, to inform the study of tarot's trumps with all of this rich triumphal background from the same time and place.

Click to expand...

It might be a general problem, too, that not much historians know, that some persons dedicate a lot of work to the theme "playing cards" ... so a lot of existing information isn't collected properly.

.. .-) ... an example are the notes of FL Hubsch (1849) about playing cards in Bohemia in 1340 and little later.
Actually in these years of our studies we already found a lot of never mentioned notes and actually there must be much more. And likely there are a lot more in the never studied texts in the archives. And even if they've been read, it's a question, if these notes were recognized as such, as probably names for playing cards and games with playing cards variated to a high degree.

Franco Pratesi, who did a lot of archival research in the Florence region, found many new notes to playing cards.

Ah! Ross and Huck, you give me hope

It is sad but true that most Historians and Specialists persue their passions within the confines of the establishment. Thus leading to tunnel-vision. A case in point is the enthusiastic english astronomer Patrick Moore, who considers astrology to be rubbish, dispite the fact that it appears to have arisen before the 'science' of astronomy.

Re. the tarot (and playing cards), wonderful things you're revealing - history as it really happened. Thankyou

Bee

Well, the "undetected" ...

... this is one of it, although not "really undetected" ... actually relative well-known ... but where and by whom?

Maria Bianca Sforza married Emperor Maxililian ... late 93/early 1494

Anything is well reported ... in Germany, in history books about the emperor. It's for us not sure, that "German playing card history" found to the information, that Bianca Maria brought Italian playing cards to the marriage ... at least we never saw it mentioned in related books. Naturally we also didn't found it in English Tarot history literature.
We just found it as a German longer description of the day before the night of the wedding in a university library in an older text ... as it wasn't known to us, that this ever would become of importance, the source wasn't noted - and it's now difficult to determine, which text it was.

Bianca Maria Sforza brought these cards to the wedding and Emperor and bride discussed and looked at them before the wedding.

In the internet there are a lot of notes at different pages, that Bianca Maria loved their cards and card playing later ... at German language pages. So that's nothing for English readers.

We did some work to recover the text:

The "Regesten" are an interesting tool, if one wishes to find something about the different emperors.

We found, that the relevant report should be from (possible reporting authors):

1. Pandolfo Collenucio
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandolfo_Collenuccio

2. Balthasar Pusterla (?) - Milanese diplomat

3. Jason Maynus
probably here: "Epithalamium in nuptiis Maximiliani Regis et Blancae Mariae"
see:
http://emdbs2.fho-emden.de:8080/DB=...AT=/SET=43708/SID=3df03303-0/TTL=1/SHW?FRST=3

4. Erasmus or Erasmo Brascha, important Milanese ambassador at the court of Maximilian

One of the reports should contain the description, actually we assume, that it is the report of Brascher.

Following are the relevant informations in the research-tool of the Regesten in the year 1494.
(You can try the search engine yourself at:
http://ri-regesten.adwmainz.de/
you have to give the year 1494 at the entry "Datum" - you can specify the research by adding for instance "Bianca Maria" in the field "Stichwörter")


*************
Nr. 457

(Maximilian I.) Fundstelle/Zitat: RI XIV 1 n. 457 URI

1494 März 9 Hall

Die Mailänder Gesandten berichten Hg Ludovico Sforza: KM traf abends mit geringer Begleitung in Hall ein. Kgin Bianca kam mit dem Schiff aus Innsbruck. Kurze Begrüßung durch KMs Kanzler und den Mailänder Gesandten Jason Maynus. Abendtafel und Festlichkeiten. Beilager.

KOP: Bericht des Mailänder Gesandten vom folgenden Tag (Nr 458); dgl. Bericht der Frankfurter Gesandten vom 14. März (Nr 472); dgl. Bericht des Gesandten von Ferrara Collenuccio vom 18. März (Nr 491); vgl auch den Mailänder Sammelbericht bei Calvi (C 6, 61 ff.) vom 15. März: dort auch der Inhalt der Begrüßungsrede durch KMs Kanzler (Stürtzel?).

**************
Nr. 458

1494 März 9 Hall

Die Gesandten Zaccaria Contarini und Girolamo Lion berichten vom Kgshof nach Venedig: Sonntag den 9. März (Domenega passata ... a dì 9) kam KM nach Hall, 5 Meilen von Innsbruck entfernt, wo ihn die Kgin im Hof ihrer Wohnung erwartete. Er stieg vom Pferde, und sie reichten sich die Hände. Der Bf von Brixen entschuldigte KM wegen seines langen Ausbleibens, das in wichtigen Geschäften begründet sei. Sie begaben sich zusammen mit Ehg Sigmund und dessen Frau zum Mahl. In der folgenden Nacht schliefen sie miteinander.

NB: Aus dem Bericht der venez. Gesandten vom 18. März (siehe Nr 488).

*************
Nr. 459
(Maximilian I.) Fundstelle/Zitat: RI XIV 1 n. 459 URI

1494 März 10 Hall

Balthasar Pusterla, Jason Maynus und Erasmus Brascha berichten Hg (Ludovico Sforza) über die Zusammenkunft der Kgin (Bianca Maria) und KMs in Hall, über die Festlichkeiten und den Vollzug der Ehe. Ex Alla 10 Martij 1494.

KOP: Mailand AS, ASforz, pot sov, cart 1467, fol 131 f. — LIT: W 1, I, 367 f.

*************
N. 460

(Maximilian I.) Fundstelle/Zitat: RI XIV 1 n. 460 URI

1494 März 10 Hall

Ähnlicher Bericht des Mailänder Gesandten Brascha an den hgl Sekretär Bartholomeo Calco in Mailand: Das Beilager hat zur Enttäuschung aller unserer Feinde (ad confussione de li inimici nostri) stattgefunden. Der Gesandte hat sich gestern Abend (9. März) lange Zeit zu dritt mit KM und der Kgin Bianca unterhalten, bis sie zu Bett gingen.

ED: C 6, 59 f; der originale Wortlaut des Datums fehlt bei C 6.

***********
NUMBER 461 (CARDS are mentioned, although they were only used at the next day - after the wedding night)

(Maximilian I.) Fundstelle/Zitat: RI XIV 1 n. 461 URI

1494 März 11 Hall

KM weilt in Hall; er spielte mit Bianca KARTEN. Abends ein häusliches Tanzfest.

Bericht des Collenuccio vom 18. März (siehe Nr 491).

**********
refered to NUMBER 491

(Maximilian I.) Fundstelle/Zitat: RI XIV 1 n. 491 URI

1494 März 18 Innsbruck

Pandolfo Collenuccio berichtet Hg Ercole d'Este von Ferrara sehr ausführlich über die Hochzeitsfeierlichkeiten in Hall und Innsbruck. Inspruchis 18. Martij 1494. servus PANDULPHUS. ss.

ORG: Modena AS, dis amb germ, busta 1. — NB: Die Einzelheiten dieses Berichtes oben unter dem 16. März (Nr 477). — LIT: W 1, I, 367 f.
***********
refered to Nr. 477

(Maximilian I.) Fundstelle/Zitat: RI XIV 1 n. 477 URI

1494 März 15 Innsbruck

Erasmus Brascha berichtet Hg Ludovico (Sforza), KM wolle kommenden Montag zu der geplanten Besprechung mit dem Kg von Frankreich (Karl VIII.) aufbrechen. Zur Kgin (Bianca Maria) ist KM sehr zärtlich und aufmerksam und überhäuft sie mit Geschenken; sie schlafen täglich beisammen; KM wünscht, daß Bianca Maria kommenden Sonntag (16. März), deutsch gekleidet, mit der schönen Krone, die er ihr geschenkt hat, (mit ihm) zur Messe geht. Jason Maynus wird am Sonntag nachmittag eine feierliche Rede halten. Den Gesandten von Montferrat wurde in Anwesenheit der Mailänder Gesandten Audienz gewährt, zum Zeichen der besonderen Freundschaft mit Mailand. Ex Hispruc 15 Martij 1494.

KOP: Mailand AS, ASforz, pot est, alem, cart 578. — EDD: C 6, 61 ff.. — NB: Ebenfalls am 15. März 1494 berichtete Bianca Maria selbst ihrem Onkel von ihrem ehrenvollen Einzug in Innsbruck, von den kniefälligen Ehrenbezeugungen, welche ihr die anwesenden Fürsten erwiesen, sowie von der täglich größer werdenden Liebe KMs. Sie dankte dem Onkel dafür, daß er ihr zu so großem Glück verholfen habe (a.a.O.).

***********

General material Maximilian + Bianca Maria Sforza:
http://resikom.adw-goettingen.gwdg.de/artikel.php?ArtikelID=123

***

Actually it is known .... but ....

Naturally these Italian cards should have been "very nice cards" and it probably it were Trionfi cards. The German report does not mention "Trionfi cards" or "Tarot cards" - naturally. This was not an interesting note to the writing researchers, being not concerned with playing cards history problems.

As the usual Italian sources about Trionfi cards do not give directly the information, that brides - as a common habit - got a playing card deck for their wedding (although it is somehow clear, if one researches the overall context), this German occurence is of some importance to clear up this detail with some evidence.

Huck, I try to translate as much Italian and French and Latin as I can. I never post any of those languages without giving a translation or summary in English.

It is the responsibility of researchers who have languages, if they are appealing to an English-speaking audience, to translate or at least summarize the text and the importance of these texts for the study at hand.

Please try to do that.

These German passages cannot be left standing without some kind of indication of what they mean.

Ross

I did so ...

"NUMBER 461 (CARDS are mentioned, although they were only used at the next day - after the wedding night)"

The rest is for reference and evidence (quotation only) ... actually my part was written for readers, who are able to understand, that life and research is a labyrinth ... and they'll experience it, when they really try to read in the "Regesten".
If this is too difficult for English readers, I could pass a sentence like " ... evidence is too difficult for English readers" or kill the passage completely. I don't think, that life is improved by this action.

Huck said:

I did so ...

"NUMBER 461 (CARDS are mentioned, although they were only used at the next day - after the wedding night)"

The rest is for reference and evidence (quotation only) ... actually my part was written for readers, who are able to understand, that life and research is a labyrinth ... and they'll experience it, when they really try to read in the "Regesten".
If this is too difficult for English readers, I could pass a sentence like " ... evidence is too difficult for English readers" or kill the passage completely. I don't think, that life is improved by this action.

Click to expand...

I saw that, thanks. But the relevance of the others is not immediately clear.

The point is that this is a public group, and a general interest group. It is a not a group of specialized researchers. It is not only you and I who read it.

Therefore, if you are presenting evidence to make an argument before this audience, you HAVE TO present it in a way that the general English-reading public of these forums understands. Otherwise, we are only talking to ourselves.

People like historical narrative, and they like seeing everything put together. They also like to be given precise factual information, but not in a language they don't understand.

I urge you to summarize the evidence you presented and make it relevant to your point. Please?

Ross

Hello boys

I, for one am quite happy with the brief notes in english, and the links. I can go to them with a translator - or even open this thread with one.

Bee

Thanks Bernice. I like your spirit. That's Huck's point, for sure, that anybody really interested will make the effort any way possible to understand and being the "labyrinthine" journey - including into foreign languages.

But as an open group on an English forum, we have a duty not to become specialized to the point of obscurity. This kind of thing is for private communication or specialized mailing lists.

The reason that I bring it up is because I receive complaints from time to time from sincere members who don't understand what is being said. If it is in English, I can only say - study harder. But if it is in another language, then it is for the person presenting the texts to make the argument.

Especially in our study, the languages used are often not the standard modern versions that can be electronically translated. And it is unfair to ask the casual reader to do that work, if the poster knows what the text means in English anyway. So, just say it in English. Literal translation is not necessary, just a summary.

Ross

Ross:

The reason that I bring it up is because I receive complaints from time to time from sincere members who don't understand what is being said.

Click to expand...

I had not realised that people actually complain! There are free web translators.... and the brief notes in english are enough to indicate whether or not you want to delve any further. I thought that only members of a Research Forum might have grounds for complaint. (...no wish to offend people).

Bee