Discovering Gébelin!!

Pipistrelle

firemaiden said:
Hey Pip! thanks for posting. Enjoy deciphering the French. Some of it is hard going - the old (or just bad) spelling causes confusion (for example: "bale" for "balle")- and I believe there are a few typos ("rient" for "vient" ?). In addition there are some words that have a different sense today that in his day. I have found an astonishing on line french-french dictionary which helps with some of more unusual meanings.

Many words are so ambiguous as to be meaningless, and require interpretation - like "administration générale" - "general administration" what? I interpreted to mean (because of the context) - outside interference.
Thanks for the tips and the link, firemaiden. I'll definitely be needing them. :)
Haven't had a chance to look at the text so far, or to catch up with your other posts here (stupid work getting in the way!) but am itching to get going.

Pip
 

Melvis

Loving every word of what you're doing Firemaiden..don't stop! :)

The Hanged Man observation is very intriguing. The problem is that his attitude towards the 'cardmakers' is so negative that it's hard to distinguish from this text just how prevalent an idea that would have been at the time. He writes as though it's obvious to him, but this is the first I've read of such a theory. I remember reading somewhere that this type of hanging served as punishment for a traitor in the times leading up to Gebelin. Perhaps that's what he's refering to when he says, "it is the just punishment for the inventer of the Game for having represented a "popess"?

Maybe the Hanged Man is actually a dig by a card printer about one of the nobles he was designing a deck for in the early days of tarot. "Oh, did I make a mistake on the "Prudence" card? You mean I wasn't supposed to portray your brother, the Count of Blahblah, who happens to be a spy for your enemies, as a traitor? Wow. My bad." ;)

Peace,

Melvis
:TSTRE
 

firemaiden

Hi Melvis! Yes, I do think he's refering to punishment, but really it is a snide comment about how the cardmakers need to be punished.
 

firemaiden

Rosanne said:
I have always thought of the Hanged Man as Prudence more than sacrifice. Along with Court de Gebelin I was told De Mellet thought of the card as Prudence as well. Many thanks ~ Rosanne

It is fascinating to me that Gébellin made this connection with prudence - by uprighting the card, and calling it the "suspended foot"; however if he had had access to the earlier evidence we now have, showing that the hanged man being upside down, is one of the earliest cards in the deck - he would have realised, the upside down hanging aspect was not the mistaken addition of a rogue cardmaker!
 

firemaiden

On the Hermit

Gébellin on the Hermit

I translate
No. VIIII. or IX
The Wise man or the Seeker of Truth and of what is Right ["du Juste" = of the just, true, right, correct]

Number IX. represents a venerable philospher in a long coat, hood over his shoulders: he walks bowed over his walking stick and holding a lantern in his right hand. It is the wise man who seeks Justice and Virtue.

This Egyptien painting makes one think of the Story of Diogenes who, lantern in hand, seeks a man in broad daylight. Witicisms [bons mots], especially epigramatic ones, belong to every century, and Diogenes was the man to put this picture into action.

The cardmakers have made a Hermit of this wise man. That is pretty well envisioned on their part: the Philosophers live volontarily in a retreat, where they can escape the frivolity of the world [siècle]. Heraclide was seen as crazy by his fellow citizens: in the East ["Orient"], furthermore, to devote oneself to speculative sciences or to be a hermit, is practically one and the same thing. The Egyptian Hermits had nothing over the Indian Hermits, or the Buddhist Monks of Thailand [Talapoins de Siam]: they were or are all so many Druids.


There are a few (obscure perhaps to us but not to readers of Gébellin's time) References that ought to be clarified.

Diogenes: The Wikipedia explains - He is the witty, cynical, Greek philosopher, who lived in a tub, and "used to stroll through the Agora with a torch at full daylight. When asked about it, he would answer "I am just looking for an honest man".

When Gébellin says Diogenes was just the man to put the "bons mots" into action - you have to read the wikipedia article - I think he is thinking of how Diogenes acted out his witty/cynical ideas instead of saying them. Looking for a wise man with a torch in broad daylight is one example -- in another example:
[...]Alexander [the Great] found the philosopher rummaging through a pile of human bones. Diogenes explained, "I am searching for the bones of your father but cannot distinguish them from those of a slave."
He made of himself a sort of living epigram, how perfect that it be turned into a tarot card.

(from the wikipedia: "An epigram is is a short poem with a clever twist at the end or a concise and witty statement. They are among the best examples of the power of poetry to compress insight and wit.")

I find it fascinating that he makes the comparison between scientists, Indian Hermits, Greek philosophers, and Buddhist monks, and then goes on to say "They are all so many Druids". -- all just druids in disguise. -- all retiring from the world, and concentrating deeply inward. I wonder if he is the first person to think of the Druids in seeing this card?
 

Mabuse

translation also available at Y-Group!

A while back, Donald Tyson did an English translation of "Monde primitif" which was posted on his now defunct supernatualworld.com website. It is still available in the files section of this Yahoo Group [linkremoved by moderator]

The document reminds me of the medieval chess moralities I've encountered while reading Murray's "A History of Chess" and, although its theories may be widely discredited today, it makes for fascinating poetry.

Also, if I recall correctly, de Gébelin wrongly displayed atout XII upside down, making it appear that Le Pendu is standing on one foot instead of being hanged!
 

firemaiden

Mabuse said:
A while back, Donald Tyson did an English translation of "Monde primitif" which was posted on his now defunct supernatualworld.com website. It is still available in the files section of this Yahoo Group [linkremoved by moderator]
- although the link had to be removed, I am happy to know there is another translation to be found somewhere.

The document reminds me of the medieval chess moralities I've encountered while reading Murray's "A History of Chess" and, although its theories may be widely discredited today, it makes for fascinating poetry.
- exactly how I see it - fascinating poetry, and a fascinating take - even though we know it is largely discredited.

Also, if I recall correctly, de Gébelin wrongly displayed atout XII upside down, making it appear that Le Pendu is standing on one foot instead of being hanged!
-- well yes, (you just gave away the fact that you didn't read the rest of the thread!!!) - it really do think it is worth reading the rest of the thread, and my translation to see why he thought le Pendu ought to be standing up.
 

Lillie

Just a couple of words on the hanged man.

I believe at least one of the early decks does show him upright. Or at least that is how he appears in the Vieville tarot (around 1650), which I have recently discovered and become interested in.

Also, I have heard somewhere (though I can't remember where) that he is in fact Judas Iscariot, the ultimate traitor, hung upside down, his 30 peices of silver falling from his pockets.

Though I wouldn't like to say wether this is in any way the meaning of the card, or just a meaning that was later applied to it.

Anyhow, I just thought some of you might be interested in those two small footnotes to Fire Maidens wonderful translations.
 

kwaw

firemaiden said:
It is fascinating to me that Gébellin made this connection with prudence - by uprighting the card, and calling it the "suspended foot"; however if he had had access to the earlier evidence we now have, showing that the hanged man being upside down, is one of the earliest cards in the deck - he would have realised, the upside down hanging aspect was not the mistaken addition of a rogue cardmaker!

The hanged man is shown the other way round on several decks prior to de Gebelin. And, I don't know whether its an error or not, but on p.146 of Vol. I of Kaplan there is an image from a French tarot with trump XII showing a man standing on one foot and titled 'prudence', one would expect this to be post de Gebelin, but Kaplan dates it c.1720!?

Kwaw
 

firemaiden

Very odd - I remember seeing a Pendu right side up, (Viéville?) except that there was still the bar thing from which to hang and to which his feet were attached, so it just seemed like someone had added a lable as an after thought and done so the wrong end round.