Traditional or Intuitionally

Lilianne said:

Finding any meaning in the Court cards had always been a problem until I related them to their zodiacal and elemental attributes (as per Thoth); contemplation of these has allowed me to be intuitive, now I have a better understanding of them.

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Often in the past I've said read everything you can, because it helps to have a depth of knowledge. Then when you're reading, forget everything you've read and go on your gut feeling. The depth of your book-knowledge will inform your intuition and make it richer. Bit the difficulty with espousing study is that people think it is okay to sit there with learned tomes around their reading-space, looking things up every time they turn over a card.

No.

Get to know your cards yourself, form some kind of relationship with them. Absorb knowledge. Then read without calling on it. You will read better.

Actually, the very title of the thread implies a dichotomy between traditional and intuitive readings. *Is* there such a think as a traditional reading? All the Golden Dawn stuff that started emerging into the general reading community with the publication of the RW deck is only a little over a century old, hardly time to become a tradition. People were reading way before that. How? Probably by looking at the images and thinking about them, or by learning from their aunt or grandfather, or by a combination of the two. Perhaps it is traditional to sit alone in your room, nutting out your own meanings for cards. Perhaps it is traditional to be completely unique.

I took it to mean within the 'tradition' of that deck, eg. The Last Judgment will have a very different traditional meaning than the Aeon ... even though the concept of the Aeon is a recent 'tradition' and goes somewhat AGAINST the tradition of the Last Judgement.

How would someone ... with no 'Thoth tradition' read the Aeon card intuitively?

Besides ... see post # 5.

ravenest said:

I took it to mean within the 'tradition' of that deck, eg. The Last Judgment will have a very different traditional meaning than the Aeon ... even though the concept of the Aeon is a recent 'tradition' and goes somewhat AGAINST the tradition of the Last Judgement.

How would someone ... with no 'Thoth tradition' read the Aeon card intuitively?

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And the Universe, too, quite untranslatable to The World. And Art, which still bothers me when I pick up that deck.

When I was just starting my own personal Thoth journey (thanks, Sulis!), I must admit I cheated a bit, and translated those three cards almost literally onto my experience of their predecessors. It worked for those early readings. I was unsatisfied with that, though, and went off and did some reading.

One particular person that I stress I'm not actually teaching, I'm just, in the spirit of Granny Weatherwax, not actually preventing him from learning from me if he really must, well, this person is very wedded to seeing titles on cards. I suspect he has a clumsy set of memorised meanings tucked away under his mane somewhere. I'm trying very, very hard to introduce him to decks with title-free cards, to help him expand and actually really focus on what's in the cards in front if him.

nisaba said:

One particular person that I stress I'm not actually teaching, I'm just, in the spirit of Granny Weatherwax, not actually preventing him from learning from me if he really must, well, this person is very wedded to seeing titles on cards. I suspect he has a clumsy set of memorised meanings tucked away under his mane somewhere. I'm trying very, very hard to introduce him to decks with title-free cards, to help him expand and actually really focus on what's in the cards in front if him.

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Being a newbie myself, my guess is that he is still trying to learn and memorize at least a first set of correspondences (whatever it is). When I was at that stage, working with my first RWS books and a couple of decks, my intuition completely dried out (to the point I thought it was never coming back), and I could not really see the cards, just sets of dry "meanings" --like doing crossword puzzles.

If he stays at that stage for too long, perhaps he'll need some more forceful nudging. Otherwise, I would just let him outgrow it for himself.

ravenest said:

I took it to mean within the 'tradition' of that deck, eg. The Last Judgment will have a very different traditional meaning than the Aeon ... even though the concept of the Aeon is a recent 'tradition' and goes somewhat AGAINST the tradition of the Last Judgement.

How would someone ... with no 'Thoth tradition' read the Aeon card intuitively?

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To a certain extent, I think the Thoth speaks for itself independently of any supplemental information, as does the RWS. One could ultimately understand the Aeon, but only through looking at the entirety of the deck and understanding where the Aeon comes from. Sadly, too often "intuitive" means pulling a rabbit out of a hat. People just don't sit and contemplate a single card for months on end in order to extract its full meaning. A card either "speaks" to you, or it doesn't. If it doesn't, Netflix will. However, if by intuition we also include real work on a card, which need not necessarily include esoteric study, then eventually the meaning of the Aeon could be gleaned.

It is much easier to understand Judgement, since we are practically wired for an "end of days" mindset. This card is emblematic of a symptom which I observed, that people who do not espouse Christianity still read this and other cards in a very, very Christian way. Same ideas but with different names, and it shows how a wordless deck can still promulgate ideas on its own.

The distinction between intuitive and traditional is false, and it comes from an easily confused notion that certain cards have "set" meanings that you 'just don't venture beyond;' that the cards are 'multi-faceted' but only to a limited degree... I doubt that everyone even means the same thing when they say "intuitive reader," as some might use that term to describe having a disregard for any kind of intellectual study of the Tarot, perhaps due to the assumption that the study/information could hamper one's relationship with reading the cards, making it solely a 'left-brain' activity... As if to read intuitively were to mean the interpretation of the image alone rather than to simultaneously [consciously or unconsciously] tap into any stored background knowledge. Anyone can do that - anyone can "read" the cards that way; the same way that anyone can look at a painting in a museum and feel something toward it, and potentially further explore those feelings and associations around their view. It's still a valid way to read, but it's not the only way to read, and that's not the only way to describe using one's intuition.

Others, like myself, may think of the term "intuitive reading" slightly differently, as I certainly don't feel it's limited to what I described above. The image is a big part of it too, of course, but what I am trying to say is that studying helps my reading experience tremendously, giving my intuition more to work with when reading. It's still to read/experience the image, but it's also a process of constant expansion of the depth of the ideas surrounding the cards, the archetypes... (Going back to the museum example - you can explore that painting for yourself, but knowing the title or even a little background information about the era or the artist could give you an expanded experience in understanding the painting for yourself... Similar to when you pull a card and note the title, i.e, "The Lovers" or "The Magician")

So the way I think of it is that reading intuitively doesn't mean "rebelling" against a card's "set"/"traditional"meaning. rather, it's recognizing the scope of the card and working around that expanded "field" of the card and it's meanings. It is here that we say there's unlimited exploration to be had with the cards. And it certainly never gets dull!

Often people pull a card and instead of actually reading it, they get confused about the card's relevance, thinking "How does this even remotely apply to the situation? ...This is a 'bad' card. I thought things were 'good' so the 'traditional' meaning of the card must be wrong! My intuition must be saying something different! I should ignore the 'traditional' meaning."

...In such case, someone would be confusing what they mistake as a fixed ("traditional") meaning to block their intuition from actually working with the card and seeing what it has to say about their unique situation. And as I just alluded to, perhaps that's why so often people think there are "good" cards and "bad" cards (b&w) rather than just seeing cards that have infinite meanings and messages of many colors and hues for us to connect to and further interpret and unlock. The 'traditional take' on a card is not a limit unless you make it one.

It's interesting that the Thoth is coming up in this thread, as I actually just got this deck recently and I've been absolutely delighted with all the intensive study I've been immersed in ever since. I wouldn't even for a second imagine the Book of Thoth to 'limit' my intuition because it's expanding my understanding... Perhaps that's what we're really trying to say when we use the term 'intuition.' Intuition is understanding. If you don't fully understand a 'traditional' meaning, then obviously, it will seem counter-intuitive.

What it comes down to is that it's all about how you work with and handle the information. Same thing with reading any other guidebook to a deck -- you can choose to see the body of information as a fence or as a gateway. Technically, you could work with a deck without any kind of prior study of the text/literature/'tradition' behind the deck, but the question is, would it be to your full potential? It will be what we make of it. It's our choice, always.

Lil Red said:

Hi everyone,
So besides studying the lenormand I noticed something about tarot more specifically the Rider-Waite that it has it's own style as in it's symbolic, astrology, tradition, and ect. I mean I already know that it had it's own meaning, but had no clue that there were a specific way to read it (yes I know you can read it anyway you want, but I'm talking about that I had no idea it had it's own tradition). So out of curiosity how do you read the Rider-Waite deck (the deck itself and the clones)? Do you read it intuitionally or is there any style that you read it?
I read it like a storybook as well intuitionally. I find that much easier and fun to play around with it instead of taking it too seriously.

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Yes the Rider Waite does have symbols and patterns that repeat in various ways throughout the deck. There are astrological references to the cards and many are based on a book called Book T by Mathers who was part of a secret society Waite belonged to.

There is no 'specific' way to read it. There are key words you can pick up which may apply to each card and it's perhaps a good idea to read up on the cards and learn as much as you can. I have found that learning what the various symbols mean, the meaning of colours etc informs my readings. It took a good few years before I knew enough about the deck to start to read intuitively and I learn new things about it all the time.

There are an indefinite way of reading the cards together so you'll never stop learning or seeing new things in the deck. I think the reason it's so enduring is because of the pictures that help it to be read like a picture book.

There is a Rider Waite Forum where you can ask questions about the symbols in the deck and the Using Tarot Cards Forum where you can ask questions about cards and how to interpret them.

I found Joan Bunning's site, Learn Tarot really helpful for key words when I first started out and had no clue what I was doing. I haven't read any other Tarot books just started with Learn Tarot and then just jumped off from there.

I hope you enjoy the deck

closrapexa said:

........It is much easier to understand Judgement, since we are practically wired for an "end of days" mindset. This card is emblematic of a symptom which I observed, that people who do not espouse Christianity still read this and other cards in a very, very Christian way. Same ideas but with different names, and it shows how a wordless deck can still promulgate ideas on its own.

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However, according to PKT, "It is the card which registers the accomplishment of the great work of transformation in answer to the summons of the supernal—which summons is heard and answered from within.....Let the card continue to depict, for those who can see no further, the Last Judgment and the resurrection in the natural body; but let those who have inward eyes look and discover therewith." Then he compares it to Temperance (the great work itself, of which Judgment is the culmination).

ETA. The Last Judgment is described in the final chapter of the book of Daniel, which is hardly a Christian document, although some extremist Christians interpret it as such. I have no patience with mindless supernaturalism a la Tim LaHaye.

I don't disagree, but even if it shows the Rapture, in showing the culmination of the Great Work, how we all got there is very different. While there is an esoteric side to Christianity's exotericism, it is still Christian in a way the Aeon isn't.

This can also be seen in the Hanged Man, in which only visually the Waite version is less about suffering, but only because suffering and sacrifice is the natural and normal way of the world according to that deck, so there is hardly any reason to draw attention to it. This has resulted in the HM being a lot more like the Hermit, with the Hermit losing much of its distinction.

I'm not even going into the Devil, the epitome of the adversarial vision, it preaches that good is good and evil is punishable. You don't need the PKT to see that in the Devil, and seeing him as temptation and evil is a Christian idea.

Point is that on the one hand the staunchest intuitionists get their ideas from somewhere, like the PKT, but even if they didn't the RWS would still push a certain agenda, like the Thoth, even devoid of any additional material.

Yes, the imagery of the RWS Judgment is that of the Marseille, as is the case with most of the Waite trumps. Without some acquaintance with Crowley's 'eschatological' use of Egyptian mythology, I really wonder what an intuitive reader could get out of Aeon. It would be like 'reading' a Rorschach inkblot, but maybe that's the way they read anyhow.

ETA. If I'm not mistaken, doesn't Crowley regard the incarnation of the soul as the greatest possible sacrifice? Sounds suspiciously like esoteric Christianity. There is (understandably) a wisp of Christian ambience about the Thoth. An intuitive reader might latch onto this.