Metafizzypop
I suppose that's true. Although I must admit that I don't see what any of this has to do with transgenders and bathrooms. Would you be able to expand on that thought, because I don't really follow.
Tarot Ethics
I suppose that's true. Although I must admit that I don't see what any of this has to do with transgenders and bathrooms. Would you be able to expand on that thought, because I don't really follow.
prudence
Because it's conflating one thing with another. We are talking about people using tarot cards to ask about another person's feelings. A very benign action, not gonna give you any hard core graphic info. If we equate it with peering into open windows, wow, all of the things you can see and behold! A world of difference. Same goes for people who conflate a transgendered person using the bathroom of whatever gender they identify with, and sexual predators using any bathroom they want in order to assault someone in that bathroom.
If we are going to worry about the bathroom issue, and all of the horrors that can happen in them, it just feels the same as how you framed this issue with people asking third party questions when they are still very new to tarot readings. Oh my, we might have really bad people, with really bad intentions doing readings on other people's feelings! And where might it lead?? Like you said, it might lead to someone thinking they can peer through windows to gain insight on something. As if that is just a normal avenue to take, peering in Windows, same goes for a trans person using a bathroom to assault someone.
It just seems as legitimately scary as transgendered folks using a public bathroom to assault someone. There's just not a lot of people in the world causing harm to others by reading tarot cards, even if it is a third party reading. I'd also guess that there aren't a lot of trans folks using restrooms in order to assault people. So, yeah, you comparing it to peeping toms, is a bit over the top. When you actually read up on peeping toms and rapists, those stats are scary.
What exactly is so wrong about new readers asking questions like "what are his feelings for me?" How was my statement so horrifying? They can learn a lot from this kind of question. I think they will learn if it really showed the truth or whether it showed their own desires. That's where they learn, and no I just don't see the harm that you have described, I don't see it at all.
Metafizzypop
I don't see it either, because I never said there was any harm in doing those readings. If anything, I said I thought they were fine.
I'd like to explain that what I said was just a joke. Nothing else. You said we could learn from doing third-party readings. And I said we could learn by looking through the neighbors' windows. I thought it was funny. Please forgive me. I do realize that there is no comparison whatsoever between people who read tarot and people who are sexual predators.
About those 3rd-party tarot readings, I did not by any means intend to "equate it with peering into open windows." I only meant to say that the "learning" excuse, used for an innocuous tarot reading, could potentially be abused by a jerk.
gregory
I think I agree with both of you. This is absolutely not, though, a distinction between personal and professional practice. "Even" professionals - in every field - who follow the "ethics" required by their professional body do so as a part of their PERSONAL ethics. Take for example a doctor who is anti-abortion who refuses to perform the surgery or refer a woman in need to another doctor - that is not his "professional" ethics at work - it's entirely personal. I think this issue is rather like that.
I am well known for refusing to do such readings myself, and I go further and say I would rather that no-one read ABOUT my feelings for a third party. I would wish that any reader asked to ask about that would tell their sitter to come and ask ME (yeah, I know, not gonna happen.) As for how to read to dewte5mien whether someone is gay before the sitter is prepared to "waste their time" (this was a genuine thread here
) offering them a coffee - just no. I DO feel that there are some things that shouldn't be asked of the cards, because that can lead to a snakepit of misunderstanding and the rest.But my ethics are my own, and I would never try to force them on others, however forcefully I might state them. (prudence will know how much we disagree on this specific issue - but I would never ever try to suggest she was less than an ethical reader.)
In a way, I think this thread is something of a red herring. Each of us has to read according to our own ethics. There are NO "accepted ethics", no "golden rules" - indeed there is a thread about THAT that got - more than heated
Yes, it is. Opinion is the wrong word here, but whether or not it is OK is totally personal.
Ruby Jewel
I think I agree with both of you. This is absolutely not, though, a distinction between personal and professional practice. "Even" professionals - in every field - who follow the "ethics" required by their professional body do so as a part of their PERSONAL ethics. Take for example a doctor who is anti-abortion who refuses to perform the surgery or refer a woman in need to another doctor - that is not his "professional" ethics at work - it's entirely personal. I think this issue is rather like that.
I am well known for refusing to do such readings myself, and I go further and say I would rather that no-one read ABOUT my feelings for a third party. I would wish that any reader asked to ask about that would tell their sitter to come and ask ME (yeah, I know, not gonna happen.) As for how to read to dewte5mien whether someone is gay before the sitter is prepared to "waste their time" (this was a genuine thread here
But my ethics are my own, and I would never try to force them on others, however forcefully I might state them. (prudence will know how much we disagree on this specific issue - but I would never ever try to suggest she was less than an ethical reader.)
In a way, I think this thread is something of a red herring. Each of us has to read according to our own ethics. There are NO "accepted ethics", no "golden rules" - indeed there is a thread about THAT that got - more than heated
Yes, it is. Opinion is the wrong word here, but whether or not it is OK is totally personal.
A lot of confusion resulted from my statement that "it is not my opinion." Let me clarify and rectify this problem and hopefully put it to rest. I failed to insert the qualifier "just"...it should have read "it is not just my opinion". I wanted to emphasize that there are "two schools of thought" regarding the issue....not "just" my personal opinion. Instead of picking up on the two schools of thought, it seems the emphasis and focus was put on the "my opinion", totally missing the actual point I was trying to emphasize which was the fact that the issue is a controversial one which has split into two schools of thought. Of course it is my opinion. Obviously. Still, that is a rather moot point in this issue....not really the focus.....just a point to obfuscate the focus. I was merely pointing out the need for establishing our own personal ethics in card reading. No more than that. As I mentioned in an earlier post, had I realized this issue was going to become so heated, I would have taken more care in the wording. As it stands, it seems the issue I wanted to address has been essentially missed altogether: whether it is acceptable to read for 3rd party persons...or not.
gregory
There are a LOT more than two schools of thought on this. Old threads will testify...
Not least the "well, yeah but no but yeah but intent is everything", and "it depends what you will use the information for", and "It depends why they need to know".... The whole issue is littered with "it depends". Even I - an anti-3rd party reading person - would have trouble ignoring something that showed up on the side....
Very few readers will say no no absolutely not no never - not least because - as many have pointed out - it can all come up by accident in another reading. What do the absolutely nevers do then ? Stop the reading and say oops, I can see what your husband thinks of his secretary, so we had better stop now, as that is none of your business... ?
My point, though, was more that ethics - any ethics - are not opinions but deeply held beliefs. It is not my "opinion" that murder is wrong, that having children starving in a rich country is criminal, that tax evasion is evil. It is something far more visceral than an opinion.
Not least the "well, yeah but no but yeah but intent is everything", and "it depends what you will use the information for", and "It depends why they need to know".... The whole issue is littered with "it depends". Even I - an anti-3rd party reading person - would have trouble ignoring something that showed up on the side....
Very few readers will say no no absolutely not no never - not least because - as many have pointed out - it can all come up by accident in another reading. What do the absolutely nevers do then ? Stop the reading and say oops, I can see what your husband thinks of his secretary, so we had better stop now, as that is none of your business... ?
My point, though, was more that ethics - any ethics - are not opinions but deeply held beliefs. It is not my "opinion" that murder is wrong, that having children starving in a rich country is criminal, that tax evasion is evil. It is something far more visceral than an opinion.
Ruby Jewel
There are a LOT more than two schools of thought on this. Old threads will testify...
Not least the "well, yeah but no but yeah but intent is everything", and "it depends what you will use the information for", and "It depends why they need to know".... The whole issue is littered with "it depends". Even I - an anti-3rd party reading person - would have trouble ignoring something that showed up on the side....
Very few readers will say no no absolutely not no never - not least because - as many have pointed out - it can all come up by accident in another reading. What do the absolutely nevers do then ? Stop the reading and say oops, I can see what your husband thinks of his secretary, so we had better stop now, as that is none of your business... ?
My point, though, was more that ethics - any ethics - are not opinions but deeply held beliefs. It is not my "opinion" that murder is wrong, that having children starving in a rich country is criminal, that tax evasion is evil. It is something far more visceral than an opinion.
You will note the "two schools of thought" was a quote from a professional....whom, I believe has earned a great deal of respect in the field. Nor does she attempt to speak for other readers....which I think is a very good policy. Since one can't think for them, why try to speak for them. Just speak for yourself and your own "personal" beliefs....which is the only belief any of us is qualified to speak about. You are saying that ethics are not based on opinions? Hmmmm....I find that rather unfeasible.
gregory
An opinion is not the same as a belief. It simply - isn't.
It is not my opinion that the sun will rise tomorrow - but I believe it will do. That is my belief. One day that belief will probably be shattered (and that IS an opinion !)
As to the two schools of thought - Gaudet has said that - sure. But I think she has over-simplified. Very few things in life are black and white.
It is not my opinion that the sun will rise tomorrow - but I believe it will do. That is my belief. One day that belief will probably be shattered (and that IS an opinion !)
As to the two schools of thought - Gaudet has said that - sure. But I think she has over-simplified. Very few things in life are black and white.
Ruby Jewel
Everything you say here is your opinion. Perhaps you will get my point. It is a very tiresome exercise, arguing over semantics which is what this entire thread has turned into....so, ultimately I can only say....."whatever.." and leave it at that.
Zephyros
Moderator Note:
And leave it at that we will. Please refrain from meta-discussion and return to the subject at hand. Because the meta posts are inseparable from the others none will be removed for the time being, but let's get on with the topic.
Zephyros
And leave it at that we will. Please refrain from meta-discussion and return to the subject at hand. Because the meta posts are inseparable from the others none will be removed for the time being, but let's get on with the topic.
Zephyros
