OOTK initial step - four piles - let's try it

rif

The first step of the OOTK is to shuffle and cut the cards, then divide into two piles, each of which is divided into two further piles. (For details on this, please refer to Book T based sources.) These piles are YHVH, as read from right to left. So we would look at four piles of cards, each representing a letter of this Tetragrammaton, with its elemental associations:

H final:Earth V:Air H:Water Y:Fire

Each pile is turned over, and the cards now on top can be interpreted positionally to give an overview of the situation. I gather from Book T that the "meanings" of the piles themselves don't impact this step. Rather, the cards are interpreted based on their meaning and dignification. If anyone disagrees, I'd like to discuss this in one of the threads listed below.

Book T example: Chariot - 4P - 6S - 10W
"The Enquirer works very hard and gains but little money, yet matters are beginning to improve." This interpretation makes sense to me, although I don't think the interpretation is a matter of reading a sentence from right to left. It seems like amalgamating the cards in what order makes sense.

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Here is a sample draw from me (ah, two court cards...). I was thinking that someone asked about how their job was going. I neglected to choose a significator for this example, which I should have done first. I feel that the Magician is the tarot's chosen significator in this instance.

Kn of P - 8P - Kn of C - Magician
Strong - Weak - Strong - Moderately Strong

The querent is quite skillful and masterful. (Magician.)
He works with determined younger people, perhaps in a supervisory capacity. (Two strong Knights; contrasted to the Magician.)
His judgement in interaction with these people is lacking. (8P, besides prudence, refers to skill and cunning in Book T. Traits described for the Magician as well!)

So, the querent is good at what he does for a living. He works with or supervises younger people, but his interactions with them are lacking.
===========

That's my interpretation. Would someone else like to take a stab at this? I'm thinking we can post our own take on any previous interpretation(s), then post our own, and keep the chain going.

Abbrevs used/suggested:
W(ands), C(ups), S(words), P(entacles)

K(ing), Q(ueen), Kn(ight), P(age) - this differs by deck and by document. I suggest these because only one abbrev requires more than one letter.

A thread for questions about Opening of the Key:
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=17651

A another thread with questions about Golden Dawn interpretation in general (i.e. the Elemental Diginity rules):
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=113657

thorhammer

rif said:
Kn of P - 8P - Kn of C - Magician
Strong - Weak - Strong - Moderately Strong

Did you derive these through EDs? I can see how that would work - the 8P in V(Air) would be weakened, yes? And your interpretation including the coworkers came from the presence of Courts - why "younger"?

Using the Thoth, here is my take:

Knight of Disks - 8 of Disks - Knight of Cups - Magus

All that Earth together makes me think he's working hard against a srong trend of inertia at his place of work (KnD in final H) - there is little chance of promotion or extra responsibility for him. Any efforts on his part to raise himself above the general horde will only fail for him (8D in V); his ideas will be stolen and he'll be passed over because he's not able to fully follow through on his work (Magus in Y). A coworker of similar age but very different demeanour will turn out to be the main agent of this strife (KnC in first H).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My turn? Here goes: The querent must travel long-distance for a family engagement. She wants to know if long-held family angst will resurface, and, if so, how to handle it. Her significator, using this method, is the Knight of Disks.

With the Thoth:

10 of Cups - 4 of Swords - 2 of Cups - 8 of Swords
Moderately strong Strong Strong Moderately Strong

There will be some verbal fencing but no argument will develop (or be resolved) (8 of Swords). Family reunion after a long separation will be welcome but cooled by the past differences (10 of Cups) but Peace will reign through a willingness on all parts to make it work (4 of Swords). A deeply loving partnership will provide continued nourishment through the whole event.

Thoughts are appreciated. This spread is autobiographical (and predictive)

.

\m/ Kat

rif

thorhammer said:
Did you derive these through EDs? I can see how that would work - the 8P in V(Air) would be weakened, yes? And your interpretation including the coworkers came from the presence of Courts - why "younger"?

Yes, and that's why 8P is weakened. Since the question was about work I assumed co-workers for the Knights. Younger because Knights represent younger people, and are interpreted as such in Book T. (Think of a Prince, or Thoth King.) Although there are some other guidelines on courts that suggest Kings/Queens are people whereas Knights are coming/going of a matter. I'll have to study Book T some more later.

thorhammer said:
Knight of Disks - 8 of Disks - Knight of Cups - Magus

All that Earth together makes me think he's working hard against a srong trend of inertia at his place of work (KnD in final H) - there is little chance of promotion or extra responsibility for him. Any efforts on his part to raise himself above the general horde will only fail for him (8D in V); his ideas will be stolen and he'll be passed over because he's not able to fully follow through on his work (Magus in Y). A coworker of similar age but very different demeanour will turn out to be the main agent of this strife (KnC in first H).

We might have some confusion because my Knights are like RWS Knights (aka Prince). How do you treat the Thoth Knights?

I like your interpretation, but I feel it goes beyond the GD description. (It's some good intuition though!

) Teheuti hammered home a good point in an older thread on GD and EDs: "just the facts." This depends if you're doing pure GD, or going more supertarot style.

Is your reading of intertia into the KnD based mainly on Earth in Earth (so to speak)? What does the Knight himself signify? How did you interpret the Magus as his ideas being stolen?

thorhammer said:
My turn? Here goes: The querent must travel long-distance for a family engagement. She wants to know if long-held family angst will resurface, and, if so, how to handle it.

10 of Cups - 4 of Swords - 2 of Cups - 8 of Swords
Moderately strong Strong Strong Moderately Strong

There will be some verbal fencing but no argument will develop (or be resolved) (8 of Swords). Family reunion after a long separation will be welcome but cooled by the past differences (10 of Cups) but Peace will reign through a willingness on all parts to make it work (4 of Swords). A deeply loving partnership will provide continued nourishment through the whole event.

I think that is pretty good. My interpretation would be similar. I'm not sure how to read the 2 of Cups; you perhaps have insider knowledge of this "loving partnership?"

8 S, I agree; my wording would be different but it still boils down to verbal fencing; perhaps some posturing. This will come to a halt by mutual agreement, if only implicitly (4S). Bonds of love will assist the querent (2C) and family happiness will be well on its way to restoration (10C).
=====================

I would provide a new reading here, but I don't want to hog the thread.

Hopefully someone else will critique the above readings and pose a new one for us all to examine.

thorhammer

rif said:
We might have some confusion because my Knights are like RWS Knights (aka Prince). How do you treat the Thoth Knights?

You make a good point . . . interesting. Maybe I should revisit this.

Is your reading of intertia into the KnD based mainly on Earth in Earth (so to speak)?

Pretty much. But I'll have another go bearing in mind the Prince-King-Knight confusion

How did you interpret the Magus as his ideas being stolen?

I'm sorry, I may have misrepresented myself in my punctuation. The 8D in V was what gave me the idea of the ideas being stolen, next to the KnC (which I'll also have to revisit

) in its strengthened state.

I'm also curious about your feeling that the Tarot selected the Magus as the sig - is that because it came up? Would it still have been the sig if it hadn't been one of the four cards?

I'm not sure how to read the 2 of Cups; you perhaps have insider knowledge of this "loving partnership?"

Yes, sorry

My BF is coming out with me, to this grand family reunion. I do hope that he'll support me emotionally during what could be a tense week.

***********************************************************************

Second go

:
.....He (final) ................V........................He....................Y.....
Prince of Disks ........ 8 of Disks ......... Prince of Cups ........ Magus

The querent makes a great deal of effort in his workplace but doesn't seem to achieve much (airy Magus in Y is explosive and not directed). He's eager to please and popular with most people (Prince of Cups in He). He struggles to divide his attention between tasks and apply his energy in a meaningful, productive way (8 of Disks in V). He's getting there, though

and his natural enthusiasm will stand him in good stead as the work piles up and the novelty wears up (airy Magus reflected in Prince of Disks as Air of Earth; Earth in Earth is work piling up etc.).

That looks good, too, though it was a lot harder! :laugh:

Since no one seems to be willing to join us, rif, I might post another stumper. Fictional, this time

***************************************************************************

The querent is a 52 year old female divorcee whose sig (as derived from the method referenced in my previous post) is the Prince of Disks (seated-guy of Disks). She is concerned because her ex-husband, with whom she was on friendly terms, has just passed away. He willed her a sum of money but his children from a previous marriage are contesting the will. She wants to know how this will turn out for her.

Prince of Cups ......... 3 of Disks .......... 10 of Disks ........... Ace of Swords
Moderately strong ....... Weak...........Moderately strong....Moderately strong......

An impartial third party, presumably the executor of the will, will dismiss any irrelevant objections by both parties (Ace of Swords in Fire) and without too much effort on the querent's part (3 of Disks in Air) the matter will be resolved without anyone being left out in the cold (10 of Disks in Water). The matter will be resolved amicably but some resentment will remain (Prince of Cups [Airy part of Water] in Earth).

\m/ Kat

rif

thorhammer said:
I'm also curious about your feeling that the Tarot selected the Magus as the sig - is that because it came up? Would it still have been the sig if it hadn't been one of the four cards?

Personal idiosyncrasy for this one situation.

Basically I felt the Magician referred to the querent, and it was almost like the tarot was reminding me I hadn't chosen a significator; even if it's not crucial for these practice exercises. I had briefly tested the older system (per Paul Foster Case) of using the Magician as significator, so it made sense to me.

thorhammer said:
*********************************************************
Second go :
.....He (final) ................V........................He....................Y.....
Prince of Disks ........ 8 of Disks ......... Prince of Cups ........ Magus

The querent makes a great deal of effort in his workplace but doesn't seem to achieve much (airy Magus in Y is explosive and not directed). He's eager to please and popular with most people (Prince of Cups in He). He struggles to divide his attention between tasks and apply his energy in a meaningful, productive way (8 of Disks in V). He's getting there, though and his natural enthusiasm will stand him in good stead as the work piles up and the novelty wears up (airy Magus reflected in Prince of Disks as Air of Earth; Earth in Earth is work piling up etc.).

That looks good, too, though it was a lot harder!

I like it! Would the airy Magus really be explosive? I would say directed at new projects but only at the beginning, then the effort tapers down. Are you reading the Prince of Cups as representing the querent's interactions? The Magus-effort tapering down ties in with your comment about "novelty wears off."

Yay, a new one!

thorhammer said:
***************************************************************************

The querent is a 52 year old female divorcee... She is concerned because her ex-husband, with whom she was on friendly terms, has just passed away. He willed her a sum of money but his children from a previous marriage are contesting the will. She wants to know how this will turn out for her.

Prince of Cups ..... 3 of Disks ...... 10 of Disks ....... Ace of Swords
Moderately strong..... Weak......Moderately strong....Moderately strong

An impartial third party, presumably the executor of the will, will dismiss any irrelevant objections by both parties (Ace of Swords in Fire) and without too much effort on the querent's part (3 of Disks in Air) the matter will be resolved without anyone being left out in the cold (10 of Disks in Water). The matter will be resolved amicably but some resentment will remain (Prince of Cups [Airy part of Water] in Earth).

First, let me say that your take is quite different than mine! Which makes the contrast fun.

I did my interpretation before I read yours, so I wouldn't be biased.

As before, I like your take. Why do you associate the Ace with a third person in this case? I can understand why it would be impartial -- the "sword of Justice." I'm not sure that I would ever think (intuit?) the Ace with a person, but never say never. I took the Ace as more of the lawsuit itself: similar to you, but different.

Nice take on the 3 of Disks, as the querent not needing too much effort. Mine was also about the querent's effort, but with a different spin. (I think the different ways you and I interpreted this one is the coolest thing about this practice exercise.)

So you took the 10 of Disks as success for all? Is that due to the fact that it is moderately strong, so there's plenty to go around? I tried to keep everything relative to the querent, so I read this card strictly from the client's POV.

I'm mostly with you on the Prince. I just revisited court cards in Book T. I agree this Prince is Air-of-Water, and I'm treating the Thoth Prince as a GD Prince (which is also termed a Knight in Book T). I guess you got resentment from the negative traits of this Prince?

My take follows, in the next post. I'm splitting my post becuase it looks too big in one!

rif

Here is part two of my post, which is my take on Kat's fictional querent.

=======================================
Prince of Cups -- 3 of Disks -- 10 of Disks -- Ace of Swords
Moderately Strong -- Weak -- Moderately Strong -- Moderately Strong

The Ace of Swords could very well represent this lawsuit, and gives it a lot of weight in its strengthened position. As an Ace it is a powerful card, and represents potential.

The 10 of Discs is a card of prosperity and material success, which is moderately strong giving it weight. Related to material success for the querent.

The 3 of Discs is a card of Work (Material Work) and reversed suggests that there is not enough effort being taken to manifest gain.

The Prince of Cups is a younger (relatively) man whose card is in a strengthened position. It represents a person with a probably calm surface hiding an emotional interior. This strengthened position probably brings out his emotional and (possibly ruthless) side, or perhaps that he is in a good position with respect to the lawsuit. Seems likely to be one of the contesters of the will.

Looking at dignities between the piles: The discs are centered, and as such represent the heart of the matter: material goods. No surprise there. The Ace flanks the 10, and both repel each other, while the Prince and 3 strengthen each other being water and earth. Although the 3 is still weaker. I'd give most weight to the Prince out of these four. And I note the absence of fire, while suggests the lack of directed will or intense passion on the part of the querent; plodding determination is the rule, with a bit of emotion pitched against logic. (I'm not used to reading the interaction between these piles, so feedback is helpful here.)

My summary: this lawsuit has a lot of potential to it, which could go quite well for the querent, awarding her a comfortable sum of money. But she currently is sitting back while a seemingly calm man is pitted against her; I read this as she's "shrinking" from him as it relates to the lawsuit. Thus, certain success is being mitigated by the fact that she lets this man undermine her efforts.

thorhammer

rif said:
I like it! Would the airy Magus really be explosive?

To me, there comes a time when one really does have to internalise the "rules" and find the logical (perhaps idiosyncratic) outcome of a certain combination. In this case, I think of a housefire burning down an outer wall and suddenly a great gush of cooler and thus denser air rushes in, fuelling the flames into a sudden explosion of short-lived intensity. That's my take - but I think it's valid to follow the rules to a certain point and then take it in your own direction.

I would say directed at new projects but only at the beginning, then the effort tapers down. Are you reading the Prince of Cups as representing the querent's interactions? The Magus-effort tapering down ties in with your comment about "novelty wears off."

Yes

to all that. I see the Prince of Cups as founding his actions on his emotional interactions with others, so being a crowd-pleaser.

As before, I like your take. Why do you associate the Ace with a third person in this case? I can understand why it would be impartial -- the "sword of Justice." I'm not sure that I would ever think (intuit?) the Ace with a person, but never say never. I took the Ace as more of the lawsuit itself: similar to you, but different.

Yes, similar but different. I don't know why I suddenly saw it as a person - just did, really. It was so fundamental in the moment that I didn't even think to question it. But then, I've always consciously refused to fall into the trap of thinking of Courts as people always and other cards as people never, if'n ya know what I mean.

So you took the 10 of Disks as success for all? Is that due to the fact that it is moderately strong, so there's plenty to go around? I tried to keep everything relative to the querent, so I read this card strictly from the client's POV.

Partly, but mostly because it seems to be sort of under a very ambivalent influence. I think I'm going to start referring to what has been heretofore "moderately strong" as something else - perhaps even "ambivalent", maybe just "neutral". It's a lot more complicated than "neutral", though, to me. The 10 of Disks is pulled in two directions, I felt.

I'm mostly with you on the Prince. I just revisited court cards in Book T. I agree this Prince is Air-of-Water, and I'm treating the Thoth Prince as a GD Prince (which is also termed a Knight in Book T). I guess you got resentment from the negative traits of this Prince?

Yes, in part. Also because I tend to think of the Y pack as an implicit neighbour to the Final He pack, and the great sword seems to threaten the Prince, which would make me resent things :laugh:

But yes, largely because of the Prince's negative traits.

\m/ Kat

thorhammer

rif said:
The 10 of Discs is a card of prosperity and material success, which is moderately strong giving it weight. Related to material success for the querent.

I see why you relate it directly to the querent, but why do you say that being "mod. strong" give it weight? I would have thought it would leave it as "normal"?

Looking at dignities between the piles: The discs are centered, and as such represent the heart of the matter: material goods. No surprise there. The Ace flanks the 10, and both repel each other,

This, I like. I would have taken this further, had I thought to include this part, and said that it dissipated any strength the 10 had, particularly with the weakened 3 of Disks on the other side. (I know, I know, I do like to complicate things

)

Although the 3 is still weaker. I'd give most weight to the Prince out of these four.

Interesting. I'd give most weight to the Ace; to me the Prince is not that strong because of being the Airy part of Water in Earth.

And I note the absence of fire, while suggests the lack of directed will or intense passion on the part of the querent; plodding determination is the rule, with a bit of emotion pitched against logic.

Nice grab - I'd read its absence as a lack more than something to be encouraged. I like balance

so I'd see the querent not standing up for herself enough.

My summary: this lawsuit has a lot of potential to it, which could go quite well for the querent, awarding her a comfortable sum of money. But she currently is sitting back while a seemingly calm man is pitted against her; I read this as she's "shrinking" from him as it relates to the lawsuit. Thus, certain success is being mitigated by the fact that she lets this man undermine her efforts.

Fair enough; resisting as I do the Courts=People thing, I wouldn't normally get this but I certainly won't argue with it; I especially like the final sentence, I think it's very insightful. Very BoT

I think it's really just you and I, though we do have lots of silent visitors

Would you like to offer another?

\m/ Kat

rif

thorhammer said:
I see why you relate it directly to the querent, but why do you say that being "mod. strong" give it weight? I would have thought it would leave it as "normal"?

Earth sinking down into the water? I don't know, it just felt right at the time.

Interesting. I'd give most weight to the Ace; to me the Prince is not that strong because of being the Airy part of Water in Earth.

And see, that's where I'm not doing the subtleties of air OF water IN earth. That makes sense to me, but I'm not ready to bring them in for myself.

Nice grab - I'd read its absence as a lack more than something to be encouraged. I like balance so I'd see the querent not standing up for herself enough.Fair enough; resisting as I do the Courts=People thing, I wouldn't normally get this but I certainly won't argue with it; I especially like the final sentence, I think it's very insightful. Very BoT

Thanks, it's nice to feel insightful now and then.

Good thought on lack versus something encouraged. In Book T, Queens and Princes (Knights) are generally people; Kings are the coming/going of a matter, event of phase of event (hey, I'm just sayin', I didn't create this

); and Princesses (Knaves) are the opinions of people around the matter.

Correlating between GD, Thoth and RWS is another matter entirely!

I think it's really just you and I, though we do have lots of silent visitors

Would you like to offer another?

I'd love to! Watch this space, I'll get something up here tomorrow.

rif

Here is a fictional querent, and my take on four piles. Using the Lo Scarabeo tarot. (My knight is "Air of...", like a Prince.)

Todd is a 20 year old student about to start his third year of college. He's currently pursuing a degree in business and accounting, having drifted into something that everyone told him would be a safe choice that would make a good financial living. Todd is realizing he doesn't want to do this, and has been exploring his options for a more creative field. He's intrigued by the idea of playwriting, and is considering changing his major to something that will give him a good grounding in writing and/or the theater. He realizes that this is a big change which will affect his relationship to his parents, his girlfriend of a year, and many friends.

Todd wants to know the impact of such a change on his life with respect to the social aspect; his relationships with others.

Lovers ---------- Tower -------------- 3 of Wands ------ 2 of Pentacles
(Air in H') ------ (Fire in V) ----------- (Fire in H) ----- (Earth in Y)
Weak -------Moderately strong ------ Weak ---------- Somewhat strong

2 of Pentacles: Earth and Fire are friendly so mostly normal strength to me. Suggests the change that would be part of this situation. Not minimal change of a weakened card nor the turmoil of a strong card; just typical change. "Harmonious change" may be quite accurate for the situation.

3 of Wands: The fire is quenched by the water, suggesting that the drive that prompts this change is lessened by the emotional impact that Todd will feel. The established strength of this card loses some of its stability. Todd's attempt to marshall his forces is undermined by the emotions around him, whether his or the people around him. (Given that the reading is about his relationships, I'd put my money on the latter.)

Tower: A case where the tarot again amazes me, as the Tower seems a perfect encapsulation of the change that Todd is considering. A ripping down of what's been built in order to rebuild. Fanned by air, this is a stronger card. I would say the intellect of air has really driven the fiery will: Todd has thought though this change "to death" until the only possibly outlet for those thoughts is to turn them into reality, and the change of majors would be about as drastic as one might expect. Note that there is a lack of water here; perhaps this is reflective of that lack of emotion or relationships involved in the change, when represented by Tower? (Whereas Death, a watery card, could bring that aspect in.)

Lovers: We come down to Lovers as a choice or unity, the latter which could certainly apply to relation between people. This is another weakened card, so I see it in its ill-dignified aspect. I had a hard time with this one so I also referred to my LWB which says "obsession." I think it means Todd will have to make some tough choices with respect to his family because they don't understand why Todd is ripping up his foundation to do something totally different. (I sense "family" more than peers or friends, or girlfriend.) Note the airy thoughts/communication here and the earth base, which could suggest a lot of verbal interaction with both sides entrenched in a point-of-view.

Two fire cards suggests a lot of inner drive for this situation. Lack of water places emphasis on the instinct and drive with thinking going on, rather than Todd feeling his way through the situation.

Summary: Todd will find the change of major itself (with respect to school, the work involved, etc.) to be a smooth process, and the change will be one that lets him do something more appropriate to his inner needs. However, Todd should expect to deal with vocal critics or even his own inner critic, which could leave him feeling less secure in this transition. And he may need to prepare especially for what his family has to say about this decision, in order to ensure their support: "forewarned is forearmed."

(I hope that wasn't too bad of a synthesis. I'm feeling a little "off" lately.)