Magick, Fate and Free Will

thorhammer

This thread reminds me of my favourite line from The EarthSea Quartet. I can't find the time right now to riffle through the first book for it, so I'll paraphrase.

"As our knowledge and power grows, ever the way we may follow grows narrower, until we do only and wholly what we must."

Just wanted to throw that in there. The first time I read it, it resonated so strongly with me, and still makes such sense to this day.

\m/ Kat
 

Always Wondering

Wonderful quote. I love well thought out sentences.
I never read the books but they seem fun.

AW
 

Aeon418

thorhammer said:
"As our knowledge and power grows, ever the way we may follow grows narrower, until we do only and wholly what we must."
Ever hear the argument that goes something like this: "If Crowley was such a great magician as he claimed why didn't he do x, y, z instead of living in poverty for most of his life?"

Now you know why. ;)

Here's Crowley's more long-winded explanation that says pretty much the same thing. For those that don't already know, "orgia" merely means work(s).
In the case of THE MASTER THERION, he had originally the capacity for all classes of Orgia. In the beginning, He cured the sick, bewitched the obstinate, allured the seductive, routed the aggressive, made himself invisible, and generally behaved like a Young-Man-About-town on every possible plane. He would afflict one vampire with a Sending of Cats, and appoint another his private Enchantress, neither aware of any moral oxymoron, nor hampered by the implicit incongruity of his oaths.

But as He advanced in Adeptship, this coltishness found its mouth bitted; as soon as He took serious Oaths and was admitted to the Order which we name not, those Oaths prevented him using His powers as playthings. Trifling operations, such as He once could do with a turn of the wrist, became impossible to the most persistent endeavour. It was many years before He understood the cause of this. But little by little He became so absorbed in the Work of His true Will that it no longer occurred to Him to indulge in capricious amusements.

Yet even at this hour, though He be verily a Magus of A.'. A.'., though His Word be the Word of the Aeon, though He be the Beast 666, the Lord of the Scarlet Woman "in whom is all power given", there are still certain Orgia beyond Him to perform, because to do so would be to affirm what He hath denied in those Oaths by whose virtue He is That He is. This is the case, even when the spirit of such Orgia is fully consonant with His Will. The literal sense of His original Oath insists that it shall be respected.
 

Grigori

Aeon418 said:
Ever hear the argument that goes something like this: "If Crowley was such a great magician as he claimed why didn't he do x, y, z instead of living in poverty for most of his life?"

Funny, I was just thinking yesterday how different the tarot and occult world would be, if Crowley had not needed that 6quid salary that Frieda offered in exchange for his help on creating a new tarot deck and teaching her its magick.... An interesting meeting point between Fate and Will perhaps.
 

Aeon418

similia said:
Funny, I was just thinking yesterday how different the tarot and occult world would be, if Crowley had not needed that 6quid salary that Frieda offered in exchange for his help on creating a new tarot deck and teaching her its magick.... An interesting meeting point between Fate and Will perhaps.
This seems to have been a common theme of Crowley's life. His little ego-self often resented the circumstances of his life. But the fact is that most of his best work was done while he was hard up and short of money. Draw your own conclusions. ;)
 

ravenest

Perhaps fate outlines the range of our development and free will is the choice to evolve or devolve within that range and magick is the tool by which we do it. I may use magick to develop to my fullest potential but if it isnt my 'destiny' to physically fly to neptune then no amount of magick will help me do it.
 

Grigori

ravenest said:
Perhaps fate outlines the range of our development and free will is the choice to evolve or devolve within that range and magick is the tool by which we do it. I may use magick to develop to my fullest potential but if it isnt my 'destiny' to physically fly to neptune then no amount of magick will help me do it.

I've seen a similar argument made by astrologers. Doesn't matter how wonderful that Jupiter transit is looking, if your natal chart doesn't reveal the potential for massive wealth, then the winning the mega-lotto just isn't an option. More likely the financial gift will be of a smaller nature, perhaps a lucky scratchie or a meat platter :D

Aeon418 said:
This seems to have been a common theme of Crowley's life. His little ego-self often resented the circumstances of his life. But the fact is that most of his best work was done while he was hard up and short of money. Draw your own conclusions. ;)

Fudugazi made a comment recently about Qabalah being more like an art than a science that really struck me in several ways. It also made me think of Crowley's work/life in a similar way to an artists, a random example being someone like Van Gogh's. Both were fairly miserable failures in terms of financial and social success though for differing reasons. But both achieved success through the lasting legacy of their art, in both cases the art being perhaps affected/inspired by their own struggles in life. I still prefer the idea of focusing on joys rather than sorrows, but there is some solace in the idea that sorrows have their reason also. Not that I'd like to stop trying to avoid them :D
 

Scion

First off. I LOVE Ursula LeGuin. Love. What a woman. What a writer. I read Tombs of Atuan at least once a year. Thank you for that quote, Kat. :heart:

Secondly, Joys and sorrows... Sim that phrase was a catalyst for some thoughts I've been having! :thumbsup:

I've been thinking about all this as well over the past few days. I aopologize for the ranting I'm about to do, but I've been dwelling so I'm just going to brain dump. Apologies in advance for not editing this into more coherence.
similia said:
Fudugazi made a comment recently about Qabalah being more like an art than a science that really struck me in several ways. It also made me think of Crowley's work/life in a similar way to an artists, a random example being someone like Van Gogh's. Both were fairly miserable failures in terms of financial and social success though for differing reasons. But both achieved success through the lasting legacy of their art, in both cases the art being perhaps affected/inspired by their own struggles in life. I still prefer the idea of focusing on joys rather than sorrows, but there is some solace in the idea that sorrows have their reason also. Not that I'd like to stop trying to avoid them :D
How much of what we think of as Joy or Sorrow is based on our illusions about things like "happy endings" or "tragic consequence" which in turn are based on literary models? Stories as discrete sequences that have clear terminals at either end? The thing is there IS no such thhing as an ending. Or a beginning. It's wildly modern to frame our lives in these totally artificial narrative terms, as if life were a TV episode or a volume in a book series. We can't help it; our imaginations are desperate for meaningful patterns and we've been weaned on entertainment for lack of most other things. Even religion has been affected by it. Christianity was CHANGED by electronic media. Hell, even by the printing press. Ditto Judaism. Ditto Islam. The Peoples of the Book. :D

I think something we can't forget is that Entertainment has replaced Mythology for most of Western civilization. Despite some superficial similarities, they are VERY different. Myths illuminate. Entertainment amuses. Of course there are times where they overlap, and even coopt each other's functions, but at root we live in a culture that seeks constant amusement... Every moment we have to be stimulated. Every story must have a structure. Every person is a character in a larger dramatis. It's a seductive way of looking at the world because humans crave certainty and order, exactly the things the universe fails to offer. Supply and demand, right? But it's easy to decide that everything is a story when you've been weaned from birth (or earlier depending on your beliefs) on basic story models, basic archetypes, basic moralities. So and so is a happy ending. So and so is a bad person. So and so is a big risk, a last chance, a lucky break, an epiphany, a tragedy, a joke. All fo these things are lessons we learn from art... as in artificial, that which is made not born.

...Which has had an enormous impact on our sense of personal narrative. We crave order and patterns and so we graft familiar patterns onto everything. "My boss is a villain"... "That was a caper"... "I am a scapegoat"... Each of those words has its root in a story with a beginning-middle-end, even though Life has none of those things. Linear time is a pretty recent invention, in terms of civilization. Now that's irritating, because modern folks hate the idea of cyclical time, that nothing changes, that people make the same mistakes in different clothing over milenia. The truth is, people don't change much. As always, I'm reminded of the Ancient Egyptian graffito, "Kids today! The don't respect their elders and they spend all their time in bars." Same old same old. Death at the hands of youth.

similia said:
I've seen a similar argument made by astrologers. Doesn't matter how wonderful that Jupiter transit is looking, if your natal chart doesn't reveal the potential for massive wealth, then the winning the mega-lotto just isn't an option. More likely the financial gift will be of a smaller nature, perhaps a lucky scratchie or a meat platter :D
EXACTLY! It's not thsat it doesn't affect you, but that you will only be as affected as it is possible for you to be. The same holds true in Magick. It's all well and good to cast a spell to win a court case, but if you don't hire a lawyer and show up, you're moron and magick isn't going to help you win anything. The dopey Hollywood hocus-pocus versions of myth and magick and metaphor have done awful things to people's sense of possibility and expectations. As usual, people want everything for nothing, which (for the record) is exactly what magick (and myth and metaphor and math) is NOT. As above, so below.

When folks grumble about Fate and protest that they only believe in Free Will, I think it's because (like all characters in all art) people like to feel special. And if you aren't special, the option Free Will might at first glance seem to suggest that you could "choose" to be special. (Insert reference to The Secret's feeble retread of an old idea here. :rolleyes:) As if Fate and Free Will were somehow flip sides of some nightmarish Boolean coin, I think Entertainment is at fault. How many people actually choose their lives as easily as picking out a DVD or a novel? How many women become the glamorous, feisty heroine desired by all and mastered by none? How many supermen and geniuses? How many cancer patients or veterans asked for the horrors they live through? Not many. It's a bit like the fundamentalist arguments that disease or rape or bombs are heavenly punishment. It's a simpleton's explanation of the problem of Evil in monotheism. I think the reason we like the idea of picking our destiny (which is completely oxymoronic if you think about it) is because Entertainment has suckled us on the lie that we can have what we want if we ask for it and pay for it. This is the shaky "I heart Free Will" line that gets trotted out when the subject comes up in casual conversation.

We cast ourselves as protagonists in these dramas. No one is raised to see themselves as a minor character. Hell, in post-reality-TV-land EVERYTHING is a reason to televise, novelize, cinematize. This is one of the big traps of modern astrology, right? Everyone is the hero of their own story. The thing is, for most of human history, the average person KNEW where they fit in the natural (and supernatural) order. All these ridiculous social mobility delusions and social empowerment falsehoods would have seemed insane, let alone possible. Monarchs had the blood of the gods in their veins; they ruled by divine grace, and were overthrown ditto. The rest of us were "flies to wanton boys."

We have become a world comprised solely of shopping and jail. That is not to say that the world has changed, but rather that our mythologies have been castrated and infected by insidious narratives which are at core commercial products. People plunk their kids (and themselves) in front of the boob tube to unwind. Appliances as childcare and sacrament. People are so numb that films have to be scored so that audiences know when to laugh or cry or jump; we are spoonfed content because our critical and imaginative faculties have atrophied. That stuff isn't truth. Any truth it contains is (as Griz once said) the peas in the casserole: the stuff that managed to slip by the suits. Nevertheless, when people start quoting fictional situations is "proof" or using photoshopped advertisements as "ideals" there is a serious disconnect between the mimesis and the message. Is there anyone who doesn't know that Reality Show and True Story are oxymorons?!

I write stories for a living. I make entertainment. I try to slip a couple "peas" in where I can, when I can. And I think that's why Myth and magick are so important to me; because I feel like I have responsibility to know the difference and to trace the boundary obsessively and carefully. It would be as foolish of me to knowingly submit to the whirlpool of lies and live my life as if The Poetics told the "Truth" as it would be to ONLY study Hermes Great-Great-Great because there's no point on living THIS side of the Veil. Know what I mean?

Now me, personally? I feel like I spend the vast majority of my time picking away at the granite encasing my destiny... chipping at it and dusting what's revealed. Like the slaves in Michelangelo's unfinished marbles. Everything I do That I'm even a little proud of is a direct attempt to reveal that Fate... Ananke... Necessity. What must happen. Often I have to get out of my own damn way, because I find that Fate is a razored steamroller.

Is it possible for us to shake off the explicitly false lessons of Entertainment? To go from selling a story back to telling a story? Will any modern Westerner ever see stained glass as a glorious holy comic book and absorb it in the way a 15th century Spaniard would? Dunno. It's a fashionable position to rail at the machine while you're cashing the check. If I am a whore, I'll cop to it. It's only the hypocrisy I find nasty. The same goes for Fate / Free Will. I don't really believe the line is as thick as some folks, because I know that I am destined to have Free Will as much as I choose to acknowledge my Fate. Or as Crowley might say, "The Universe couldn't be other than I chose it to be."

Scion
 

ruchikari

ok am utterly confused. I will have to read all the posts in this thread atleast 3 times.

My take on this as of now

Someone here mentioned all our actions are fixed (fate) as in god already knows what choices we will make. But then how can the concept of god testing your beliefs can be explained? This concept is in many religons where in your faith or belief in God is constantly tested. Why will he test it if he already knows the outcome? Why is it said we will be judged for our actions when in the end it is fate who writes our actions and not us since we are just dummies?

Secondly Humans are considered the best creation. But if everything in our lives is so fixed then how are we different from other animals or plants.

I think we are more complex. It cannot be free will or fate but both coexisting. Otherwise spirits or gods or whatever you belive in will be actually bored because they will be watching a play or drama whose script they already know !!! also then their role or function in our life will be negligible.

I don't know whether this option has been suggested or not (told you will have to read the thread atleast thrice :D) I don't know whether i will be able to explain it properly but here goes...

Think of our lives like branches of a tree. At every node where a branch splits into two is a choice. The end point or result of a choice is fixed(that's fate) but what choice we make is upon us (free will). So our life is a tree diagram that diagram is fixed (fate) there within that diagram we have to chart our own course (free will).
Sometimes fate plays a joke on us as in if it really wants something to hapen then the end points of all the choices we face at that time will be same just the paths will be a little different. In that case role of our free will is less because no matter what path we choose outcome will be more or less same.
But sometimes fate gives us a free hand ... outcomes of all the choices are different .. in some paths she will place luck and on some bad luck. But we have the power to choose and she has the powers to deterrmine outcome of our choice
 

Curtis Penfold

ruchikari said:
Someone here mentioned all our actions are fixed (fate) as in god already knows what choices we will make. But then how can the concept of god testing your beliefs can be explained? This concept is in many religons where in your faith or belief in God is constantly tested. Why will he test it if he already knows the outcome? Why is it said we will be judged for our actions when in the end it is fate who writes our actions and not us since we are just dummies?

I was not saying that Fate writes our actions. We write our actions. We are given a variety of options and we choose what we're going to do.

God is all-knowing, so He knows what's going to happen next. He knows what you're going to decide. But that doesn't mean you didn't decide to do what you do.


I don't think of the Judgment as one moment. Sure, I believe in a major Judgment that will happen a long time from now, but it is simply a reflection of the Judgment that happens every day. Karma.

And this Judgment isn't in and of itself. It's all about moving forward, all about becoming ready for ultimate power. You can't get this ultimate power unless you actually do what you need to do. It can't just be handed to you until you're ready, even if God knows you'll be ready.


(I'm guessing talking about religion is not considered an OT, because my past posts have not been deleted).