Camoin/Jodorowsky Marseilles Deck

In the thread on XII - Le Pendu, Lee makes wonderful reflections on a variety of images, including the fine details on the Hanged Man's buttons - which has lead to further discussion regarding the Camoin deck.

I have therefore taken the opportunity to separate the more specifically Camoin discussion to this new thread.

Lee wrote:
I think I have an answer as to why the buttons on the Camoin Hanged Man are as they are. I don't think they represent the phases of the moon. I think they represent the sephiroth of the Tree of Life.

I know this sounds far-fetched, but I think I can make a convincing case for this.

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Hi Lee,

You have made a convincing case indeed! After seeing the details you've pointed out, I have no doubt this was what C. & J. intended. Thanks for posting your observations.

Lee wrote:
As I've stated in previous posts about the Camoin, I think these "esoteric" touches are not appropriate in a deck which the authors are touting as an historically accurate reproduction.

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I agree 100%, in spite of the fact that what they have done with the buttons is quite clever. It bothers me also that they add shapes into the hanged man's hair, such as a 'moon' and a 'coin'. While the Camoin is one of my favorite Marseilles, these symbolic intrusions really annoy me. What bothers me most is that nowhere — neither in the deck's little booklet nor on their web site — do they explain why the additional symbols in the deck have been superimposed onto an otherwise historical redesign. The booklet only adds confusion by implying that all the symbols were culled from the numerous Marseilles decks which they supposedly referenced during design.

This deck should really be accompanied by a book which explains the historical research and design choices made by C. & J.

Thanks,
- Mark

Hi ,

I agree.

As you know, I know well Philippe Camoin.

I'll try to give my personnal and subjective comprehension of his TdM.
I repeat that what I'm writting now engages only myself and the way I perceive Camoin and his restaured deck.

The modern Camoin Jodorosky TdM is an attempt to reconstitute what could have been the Ur TdM.

In fact, Camoin as the heir of the Conver, considers himself as the last and true representant of the corporation of the Marseilles confrery of cards - masters.

So, after having studied for years since his adolescence the different TdM, and after having received transmission of initiatic knowledge from his ascendant(s) (analogy with the "Tour de France" made by the "apprentis" going from one master to another to be initiated with the technic of their art), he finally has made his "Chef d'Oeuvre" : the "restaured" TdM.

Camoin and the cineast tarologist Jodorowsky are convinced that each card master received a piece of the Tradition.
Using the images of the Compagnonnage, each TdM was a kind of "chef d'oeuvre".
The "esoteric" signs you discover when reading the deck are their "intelligence" of the quest of the Ur TdM.

For Camoin, the Tarot is Alive and reveals Itself : each authentic card master expresses as an artist his intelligence of the revelation of the TAROT...

Maybe what I've written will be interpolated.
Yet, even I think that I am right in explaining Camoin's "specificity" , I still hope that my capacity of understanding and explaining his "démarche" doesn't mean for others that I am in complete agreement with his passions or repulsions.


Alain


PS
Now, this written, I agree with you that for the "users" of his TdM the ambiguity you noticed can be quite misleading...

Namadev said:

So, after having studied for years since his adolescence the different TdM, and after having received transmission of initiatic knowledge from his ascendant(s)

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Alain, thank you for taking time to explain to us what Philippe Camoin feels is his mission concerning the Tarot of Marseille.

I wonder who these ascendants are that he is talking about. It would make it easier for people to trust him if we knew exactly where his information was coming from. Just telling us that he has received this knowledge is a little bit thin for some people - well at least that is the impression I have got when I speak to some tarologue friends about his deck.

Hi,

Again agreed.
Camoin talks in private about his father in my memory is good who tought him many unknown things relatively to the Confraterny of Cards "Masters"...

Alain

Sheesh, so there is some kind of secret society about these cards?

Makes one wonder if there is a tarot 'god' that heads up this whole thing......

filipas said:

You have made a convincing case indeed! After seeing the details you've pointed out, I have no doubt this was what C. & J. intended. Thanks for posting your observations.

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Thanks for the kind words, Mark. I agree that the buttons on the Hanged Man are quite clever. Actually I'd have no objection to these kinds of additions, except that the LWB, as you point out, doesn't mention them and instead gives the misleading impression that these elements have been found in previous decks.

-- Lee

Hi,
Cards Masters is yje litteral translation for Maîtres cartiers.

They were grouped in a Confrery.

These kind of guild existed also in Northen Italy.

For Marseille, see :
http://www.camoin.com/tarot_fr/maitre_cartiers_a_marseille/maitre_cartiers_a_marseille.asp


Alain

Guilds of card-makers

Hi,

An article of Thierry depaulis studies the question on :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LTarot/message/512


Alain

'Maitres Cartiers' would probably best be translated as 'Master Cardmakers', in the same way that there were Guilds or, as mentioned, Confraternities, and the equivalent also existed for many professions.

I'm unsure of other parts of the English speaking world, but here in Australia we still refer to 'Master Carpenters', 'Master builders', 'Master Plumbers' &c..

I have focussed on this word simply for the sake that here is a profession which not only has a long history, but, as mentioned, inevitably some kind of apprenticeship system which would, especially in France given the campagnage system, have encouraged or necessitated that these journey (journey-men) from master to master to achieve proficiency.