Caylee Anthony V/S Casey Anthony (comparison chart)

tarotlyn

Note: If you see a word in any of my posts that is typed in ALL CAPS...please know that
it ONLY my way of emphasizing something, and I am not shouting with that word.
I further apologize to anyone if they think my writing style offends them.:heart:


:):heart: I hope this is appropriate for this thread...I just did a comparison chart
between Caylee Marie Anthony and her mother Casey Anthony
(Casey is now on trial for the death of her daughter)

I was giving Casey Anthony the benefit of the doubt (innocent until proven guilty)

...UNTIL...HOWEVER...
...today when I cast a comparison chart (between mother Casey and daughter Caylee)

RE: Combined Hard Aspects (ONLY)
...what I found was that there ARE several horrible and VERY VIOLENT aspects
between them involving Mars (temper, anger, war), Pluto (death), Uranus (sudden and erratic actions).

I now have NO DOUBT that there WAS abuse and violence by the mom, Casey,
toward her daughter that people did not realize or know existed...but it did
according to what I am looking at in their astrological comparison chart.

...and, now, I DO think (AFTER looking at their combined VIOLENT comparison aspects)
that Casey COULD HAVE (in a fit of quick violent anger) abuse and cause the death
of her daughter, Caylee.

If you want to see their 'individual charts'... here are the links to them:

Caylee, the daughter, had (what I call) the 'child abuse' aspect of 'Saturn square Mars'
in her natal chart. I have seen this aspect many times and in each case the
person was abused (in some way) as a child and it has left an emotional mark on them!
Caylee also had some hard to handle aspects and as she started getting older
her and her mom were starting to have some serious problems. Caylee was
a handful (from looking at her natal chart)
http://s428.photobucket.com/albums/...ent=CayleeAnthonyNatal.gif&mediafilter=images

ETA: Casey's is a 'sunrise' natal chart (this chart uses the Sun placement degree as the
ascendant degree, when you don't have the accurate birth time.)
She is a Sun sign Pisces and it looks probable that her Neptune is in an
opposition to her Moon...which would help explain to me some of her fantasy's,
lying, drink and drugs. (I think there are other aspects as well pointing to these negative traits)
...also note her Venus in Aires square Moon explains her selfishness and lack
of concern for others and her cold emotions...
Her Mercury square her Uranus explains the mental disturbances she has.
http://s428.photobucket.com/albums/...if&currenttag=Casey Anthony, astrology, chart

COMBINED HARD ASPECGTS that I found between them both:
(Note: aspects in 'RED' = anger, abusive, controlling, or violent aspects)

Caylee's Planets aspecting Casey's Planets
Sun square Pluto
Mercury square Pluto
Mars opposition Pluto
Saturn square Pluto
Uranus square Saturn
Pluto opposition Sun

I know there are some positive aspects between them as well, but these are
the aspects that I focused on because of their violent, etc. possibilities.

This is all so sad :( and I am trying to 'keep remembering'
that we all come here for experiences...both negative and positive ones! :bugeyed:
 

Minderwiz

tarotlyn said:
:):heart: I hope this is appropriate for this thread...I just did a comparison chart
between Caylee Marie Anthony and her mother Casey Anthony
(Casey is now on trial for the death of her daughter)

Yes this is very appropriate!!!!

I've only a limited knowledge of this case, it was reported in the UK but not given a lot of prominence. However, one issue I would raise is the accuracy of Casey's chart.

I've done a (admittedly brief) trawl of the internet and there seems to be agreement on her date of birth BUT not the time (often quoted as unknown) or even the place (I've seen Warren OH quoted and even Orlando FL)

The time quoted in the link chart is Sunrise, and this is one of the three times that an Astrologer would use, when there is no certain time of birth (the others being midnight and midday). So the seemingly very accurate time probably is not accurate at all.

This means that the Ascendant and house placements are very problematic and we should have doubts about any interpretation for her, that involves Ascendant, house placements and rulers and Moon placement and aspects.

However the planetary placements (other than the Moon) can be accurately compared to Caylee's chart, which does seem to be more accurate.

So I'll do my analysis based on Casey's chart being simply the sign placements of the planets from Mercury outwards (in Chaldean order). If anyone has come across a verified time and place can they please post it.
 

Minderwiz

Caylee/Casey Synastry Grid

To aid analysis here's a chart and a grid :

The Chart gives a biwheel of the Casey's placements in Caylee's Houses. Please remember that Casey's Moon placement is subject to significant error, the movement being 12 degrees 23 minutes in the 24 hours from sunrise on her day of birth.

The second is a synastry grid showing the aspects between Casey's and Caylee's planets. Again remember that the Moon should really be ignored (until we have a more accurate birth time). Notice that some of the aspects quoted by Tarotlyn do not show up. The reason for this is the orbs chosen. For example the Sun square Pluto is over 6 degrees and was not picked up in my current (default) biwheel settings. I'd actually be much tighter on Pluto aspects (and for that matter Neptune and Uranus) - on the very rare occasions where I do look at Pluto or Neptune aspects, I'd use an orb of 1 degree - because they move so slowly - others, of course may be more generous.

Even on my tight orbs, there are two outer planet aspects that would need consideration - the Neptune Mars trine (OK it's just over but worth a look) and of course the Pluto Mars opposition, which is almost exact! Both these aspects are applying - I'd ignore separating aspects, though there are none of those that come close to the orb I'd allow.

Before proceeding to the analysis proper some words of warning:

'The stars (planets) incline, they do not compel' is a maxim of traditional Astrology and one which we should always bear in mind. That is, there may indeed be a strong tendency to behave in a particular way but that does not mean that that behaviour must manifest - we are dealing with probabilities or traits, not necessity. So even if there is an indication that Casey might kill Caylee, we should note it but not conclude that she did - we would need external proof that the tendency translated into deed - which is what the trial has to determine.

Secondly whilst we can make judgements about how Casey related to Caylee, from the biwheel, we have only half the picture, we don't know how Caylee related to Casey (we have no accurate chart for Casey) - that knowledge might either strengthen or mitigate the conclusions we draw.

Finally it would help if we had some other charts - in particular the charts for either (or preferably both) the moment of Caylee's death or the moment of the discovery of the remains.

Edited to add:

Please remember that without an accurate time and place of birth, there's nothing to differentiate Casey Anthony from all the other people in the world born on the same day. all of whom will make the same aspects to Caylee's chart - Aspects alone are only a part, and traditionally a small part, of the analysis.
 

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tarotlyn

Actually aspects ARE a BIG part of the picture...and I stand by my analysis using JUST aspects.
You don't need the exact birth time to read the aspects below:

So, even leaving OUT her Moon aspects you still have
the following aspects between mother and daughter that ARE BIG:
Caylee's Planets aspecting Casey's Planets
Sun square Pluto
Mercury square Pluto
Mars opposition Pluto
Saturn square Pluto
Uranus square Saturn
Pluto opposition Sun


RE: Casey's birth chart
I did find one other birth time and city for Casey, but no way to be sure of it,
but it did give her a Leo ascendant, and her Sun (ruler of Leo) is in Pisces.

At any rate, she IS a Pisces. And actually Casey LOOKS like a Pisces person to me
(and I have watched her videos, photos, etc., and am now watching her in
her court trial as it is aired here on weekdays from 9am to about 5pm and on Sat
from 9am to about 1pm. To me, she looks and acts very much like a Pisces type
of person/personality.

One other thing (again, WITHOUT using the birth time)
In Casey Anthony's birth chart I find that she has a Uranus and Mars conjunction, also in parallel,
that was set off around June 15th or June 16th of 2008, the date of the suspected murder.
She also had 'transiting' Uranus in a conjunct pattern with her birth Mercury
(and they both were applying to a square with her birth Mars.)

She also has a Sun Mercury conjunction that is squaring her Mars Uranus conjunction.
She also has Pluto in a T-square with her Sun and her Mars Uranus conjunction.
To me this shows an uncontrollable temper (when these type of aspects are
set off by powerful transits)
You don't need the exact time of birth to see these powerful aspects in action.

I used to be so EXACT with details (and you can get lost in the details) and
then never really apply it to a person's life in a way that they can understand it
or in a way that really helps them.

I say there are ENOUGH HARD ASPECTS (WITHOUT the actual birth time)
to stand by my original observation of this person and situation.
Plus the court facts that have emerged this past week indicate what I think
to be true...and especially after looking at these ASPECTS between mother and daughter.

:heart:tarotlyn

ETA: I know that some of the astrologers on here may not agree with me
about the above, however, in all my years engrossed in Astrology, I have
never met two astrologers that really are totally agreeable with each other.

It seems like one is always trying to show up the other one. I never liked
debating an astrologer over whether to use exact details. I can use exact details too
if I want, BUT I prefer to share and not to say that this method is right or that method is wrong...
...and do like to keep an open mind.

And I rather tend to think that EACH astrologer has 'their own' worthy ways
of doing astrology and their 'own unique opinions' about the subject.

I always have felt that astrologers are not God and should not expect other
astrologers to 'DO IT THEIR WAY.' At the same time, I believe that they DO
have a right to apply this science in 'their own' individual way. I do not believe
any astrologer has the right to expect other astrologers to adapt to their own
particular ways of learning, teaching, or using astrology.

So, while my way of using astrology may be different than a few other astrologers,
it is still accurate, to me, from the thousands of charts I've done and from my
own experience of observing all those people that I have charted all these years.
I feel that each astrologer is valuable in their own different ways and 'because' of their different ways.
 

Minderwiz

Well I'm not sure that we fundamentally differ but for those following I'll try and make a response so that where there are differences they can be clearly seen - before I go on to do some analysis. Please note that up till now (and including this post) I've not commented on the meaning of the aspects, all I've done is to comment on the reliability of the chart for Casey.

tarotlyn said:
Actually aspects ARE a BIG part of the picture...and I stand by my analysis using JUST aspects.
You don't need the exact birth time to read the aspects below:

So, even leaving OUT her Moon aspects you still have
the following aspects between mother and daughter that ARE BIG:
Caylee's Planets aspecting Casey's Planets
Sun square Pluto
Mercury square Pluto
Mars opposition Pluto
Saturn square Pluto
Uranus square Saturn
Pluto opposition Sun

No you don't need an exact birth time to read those aspects - BUT without one you can only read PART of the picture - because we don't know for sure what the House placements of Casey's planets are. Aspects are only fully meaningful in the context of the chart and we don't know that for sure.

I did say that Astrologers differ in terms of the orbs they allow That's a matter of personal judgement. Some use whole sign aspects (which incidently would still rule out the Sun Pluto square) BUT aspects need to be considered in the context of the role of planets in a chart and we don't know these roles for certain in the case of Casey. Yes, we can speculate and I don't rule out speculation - I was about to indulge in some - but we should recognise and explicitly state the limits of that speculation.

tarotlyn said:
RE: Casey's birth chart
I did find one other birth time and city for Casey, but no way to be sure of it,
but it did give her a Leo ascendant, and her Sun (ruler of Leo) is in Pisces.

At any rate, she IS a Pisces. And actually Casey LOOKS like a Pisces person to me
(and I have watched her videos, photos, etc., and am now watching her in
her court trial as it is aired here on weekdays from 9am to about 5pm and on Sat
from 9am to about 1pm. To me, she looks and acts very much like a Pisces type
of person/personality.

If you are referring here to her Sun sign, then Yes she is a 'Pisces', But whilst the Sun by sign contributes to our analysis of personality (or at least it does in most modern and many traditional approaches) over the lifetime of Horoscopic Astrology right up to the present day the Ascendant and Moon are major (in some systems THE major) contributors and in the case of Casey, we just don't know the Ascendant, it could be ANY sign, though her Moon is almost certainly in Cancer - unless there's an error in her birth date. Again speculation is in order BUT we should be quite explicit about it's extent.

You may be right but we need to be careful.

tarotlyn said:
One other thing (again, WITHOUT using the birth time)
In Casey Anthony's birth chart I find that she has a Uranus and Mars conjunction, also in parallel,
that was set off around June 15th or June 16th of 2008, the date of the suspected murder.
She also had 'transiting' Uranus in a conjunct pattern with her birth Mercury
(and they both were applying to a square with her birth Mars.)

She also has a Sun Mercury conjunction that is squaring her Mars Uranus conjunction.
She also has Pluto in a T-square with her Sun and her Mars Uranus conjunction.
To me this shows an uncontrollable temper (when these type of aspects are
set off by powerful transits)
You don't need the exact time of birth to see these powerful aspects in action.

Yes but so has EVERYONE born on the same day as Casey - and indeed for many of the aspects you have quoted, even people born within a few days or a week of Casey! They all will have exactly the same transits to planets (though not necessarily the same houses) Are you saying that EVERYONE in the world born on 19th March 1986 has these characteristics? I don't believe that you are but apart from the chart for context, how can we say who has them and who has not?

Of course not everyone would have an opportunity or a motive for the murder of Caylee but there must be several dozen other individuals in Orlando who have those aspects and may have had the opportunity. So yes, this may be circumstantial evidence against Casey, but it's an incomplete picture without the context of her chart.

I'm NOT saying you are wrong - I'm saying that we need to exercise some caution.

tarotlyn said:
I used to be so EXACT with details (and you can get lost in the details) and
then never really apply it to a person's life in a way that they can understand it
or in a way that really helps them.

Yes you can speculate but remember the limits, which was the point of my post and the point of my comments here. However lack of an Ascendant is a MAJOR detail and we should make real allowances for it.

tarotlyn said:
I say there are ENOUGH HARD ASPECTS (WITHOUT the actual birth time)
to stand by my original observation of this person and situation.
Plus the court facts that have emerged this past week indicate what I think
to be true...and especially after looking at these ASPECTS between mother and daughter.

:heart:tarotlyn

Again my aim here is not to refute the aspects but to sound a note of caution. Whether there are 'enough' aspects is obviously something that can be debated, though I'm not sure it's something that can be objectively proved (either way) The aspects alone are insufficient evidence of guilt - if they were sufficient then all who had them would be guilty - but they are good evidence to consider, along with the factual considerations of means, opportunity and motive.

Yes there are different approaches to Astrology and yes Astrologers disagree and if you search you'll find a host of comments on Casey and her chart from various angles.

But as you say, we do need to keep an open mind in our analysis and that open mind requires that we point out the lack of reliability in Casey's chart. That does NOT invalidate speculation, nor does it mean that she didn't do it but it does require some caution in the procedures - we do not know for sure Casey's Astrological profile - whether we know enough is certainly open to discussion.

We could try to rectify Casey's chart, though that would be a hopeless task for us here, given our lack of information about her life. We might be able to set up a chart for the murder but I've not seen any confirmed date or time or place given for it - you do mention a period during which it probably happened but that's not good enough for us to erect a useful chart. I have done a chart for the discovery of the remains, which is much more certain in terms of time, date and place. And that might be worth considering.

To conclude:

I have not disputed your interpretations
Indeed I have not advanced any other interpretations, yet
I have questioned the reliability of the chart for Casey
I don't see any reason not to speculate or discuss, as long as we recognise the limits of the evidence
We might reach different conclusions or take different slants, but that is the nature of different approaches and who knows we might even reach the same conclusion!!
 

Minderwiz

Some comments and the discovery chart

I'm going to take a different approach than Tarotlyn, in that I'm not going to pay a lot of attention to Casey's chart - because of it's limited reliability. That's not to say I disagree with Tarotlyn, merely that another approach might help confirm (or cast doubt) on her conclusions.

Firstly some comments on Caylee's chart (which is seemingly accurate). She's too young to look at personality/temperament but there are some things we can note.

Apart from her Sun there is no strong planet in her chart. The Sun is also arguably angular, being six degrees from the Ascendant.Modern Astrologers would also note the opposition to Neptune which is partile.

Mercury is combust, retrograde and in the twelfth, Very weak to put it mildly. It's also squared by Mars and Conjunct Saturn - both of which weaken it further. Mars rules the fourth (her home) and Saturn rules the sixth (health but also bad fortune)

In her chart Mercury rules the eleventh (the government at all levels) and the second (material resources and wellbeing) - so there's a potential for her to be let down in terms of a failure of public service protection (either no services to identify children at risk or a failue for them to function properly) - and a failure to provide for her material needs (by those who cared for her).

Venus rules the tenth House of the Mother, and therefore is a significator of Casey. Venus is mildly debilitated and is placed in the second house - that of Caylee's material resources - Caylee is dependent on her mother and as we've seen there's some evidence that that dependency will not go well. This of course is not evidence for murder but is possible evidence of neglect. Again Modern Astrologers would pick out the partile square between Venus and Pluto.

Returning to the Sun, which rules her first house, that is also the significator of her grandfather, who plays a major role in the case (The first is the fourth house [father] from the tenth [mother]). Mercury is combust in the chart - and combustion means that it is invisible - the Sun (grandfather) obscures her condition in regard to material needs and child protection services. Again this doesn't mean that he is guilty of the murder, merely that his role helps to obscure her needs.

Saturn is in mild debility and placed in the twelfth. He also rules the Part of Death - being in loose conjunction with Mercury, that might indicate death by neglect. Amongst other things Saturn also signifies her grandmother (tenth from the tenth = seventh house of the radix, which has Aquarius on the cusp). Please note that Saturn's rulership of the Part of Death and its role as significator of her grandmother are separate -- there's not direct connection, as the grandmother is not a focus of interest per se (as she might have been in a horary question).

Mars is the most debilitated planet in the chart and rules her fourth House of Home - further evidence of a dysfunctional domestic environment (and possibly a weak or absent father figure.

That leaves us with Jupiter, which is ruler of the eighth House of Death and the Moon which is ruler of the twelfth House. Jupiter is also exalted in Cancer, so it to has some rulership in the twelfth. Both Moon and Jupiter have mild essential dignity and are placed in the second (though with Jupiter on the cusp of the third, I'll treat it as a third House planet.

There's quite a lot of potential misfortune there, though whether this could be recognised before the tragic events is debatable.

Now I'll consider the chart for the discovery of her remains. I've taken the date, time and place from:

http://www.wftv.com/news/18253901/detail.html

If anyone has a more accurate time/date/place I'd appreciate them posting.


A chart for the time of death would be better, but apart from a claim that she died on the 16th June, I've not seen a quoted time and I doubt a reasonable time could be calculated given the length of time till the discovery.

Of note in the discovery chart:

Saturn rules the Ascendant (the event) and is placed in the eighth house of Death. Saturn is of course the natural significator of death. Saturn in Virgo is ruled by Mercury and the eighth is ruled by the Sun (Caylee's Ascendant ruler)

Jupiter (Lord 8 in her natal chart) is conjunct the Ascendant - again stressing the validity of this chart. Both Jupiter and the Ascendant are trined by Saturn

However the main feature is the presence of Venus in the First House - Venus signified Caylee's mother in her natal chart and here she is prominent in the first. Although in Aquarius she is still ruled by Saturn. Venus is also in partile trine to the Moon, ruler of the twelfth House in Caylee's chart. Venus is also conjunct Saturn by antiscia.

It seems that the current defence position is that Caylee died in an accident in a swimming pool and Casey panicked and together with her father hid the body (I'm not sure if this is still being maintained so please advise if you have better info)

The link between Venus and the Moon is confirmation of the hiding of the body. Saturn ruling the Ascendant, shows the nature of the discovery - bones. However there is no obvious link to death by drowning - the Ascendant is an Earth sign and the Ascendant ruler is in an Earth sign. The other sign in the first is an Air sign.

Nor is there a link between Venus (Casey) and the Sun (her father). So her admission to hiding the body is confirmed but there's no indication of her father's involvement (although this is not the 'death' chart). That doesn't prove the defence is wrong but the Astrology shows Casey's involvement but not clearly someone else.

One last point. In Caylee's natal chart Venus is conjunct the star Denebola - which according to Bernadette Brady means 'to go against society'. In the Remains chart Saturn (ruler of the Ascendant in the eighth, is also conjunct Denebola - is this further evidence of Casey's involvement in hiding the remains or is it evidence that Casey was the perpertrator of that death (Saturn being the natural significator of death).

OK so my analysis also shows some family dysfunction (to put it mildly) in Caylee's short life. It also confirms Caysee's involvement in the hiding of the remains. There's not any clear evidence of the 'smoking gun' but the circumstantial evidence points in the same direction as Tarotlyn's.
 

tarotlyn

:):heart: Hi! MinderWIZ...I am commenting in 'pink' below:


Minderwiz said:
Well I'm not sure that we fundamentally differ but for those following I'll try and make a response so that where there are differences they can be clearly seen - before I go on to do some analysis. Please note that up till now (and including this post) I've not commented on the meaning of the aspects, all I've done is to comment on the reliability of the chart for Casey...

I did not post my thread to debate the reliability of Casey's chart...as far as
the birth time goes. I posted my thread just to comment on certain HARD ASPECTS
that I felt had led up to and caused Caley's death at the hands of her mom.
I mostly posted that I had done a 'comparison' chart.
I was basically focused ONLY on their 'COMBINED HARD ASPECTS.'

Getting into a loooog drawn out 'lecture' was NOT my intention. I also did NOT
come here for 'lessons'...but merely to share HARD ASPECTS BETWEEN the two charts.
Not to debate or discuss to the NTH degree of: "...but we should recognize and explicitly state" etc.








Minderwiz said:
No you don't need an exact birth time to read those aspects - BUT without one you can only read PART of the picture - because we don't know for sure what the House placements of Casey's planets are. Aspects are only fully meaningful in the context of the chart and we don't know that for sure.
I only wanted to read PART of the picture - and I never needed
to mention what the House placements of Casey's planets are because I was
only commenting on their COMBINED HARD ASPECTS.









Minderwiz said:
... BUT aspects need to be considered in the context of the role of planets in a chart and we don't know these roles for certain in the case of Casey. Yes, we can speculate and I don't rule out speculation - I was about to indulge in some - but we should recognise and explicitly state the limits of that speculation.
...no maybe I "shouldn't recognize and explicitly state the limits of that speculation"
WHEN I wasn't speculating...I was speaking from EXPERIENCE OUT THERE CHARTING EVERYONE,
IN MY REACH, FOR WAY OVER 30 YEARS. And my experience SHOWS me that
I DON'T need to consider the context of the roles of the planets in a chart 'IF'
I am just looking at COMBINED HARD ASPECTS BETWEEN two people.

Those aspects ARE STRONG ENOUGH WITHOUT any other considerations...COMBINED that is
and causing COMBUSTION. (Because there are MULTIPLE EXPLOSIVE hard aspects.)
I don't think it is necessary, every time, to put a chart/s under a microscope
when I ONLY want to look at SYNASTRY aspects.










Minderwiz said:
Yes but so has EVERYONE born on the same day as Casey - and indeed for many of the aspects you have quoted, even people born within a few days or a week of Casey! They all will have exactly the same transits to planets (though not though houses) Are you saying that EVERYONE in the world born on 19th March 1986 has these characteristics? I don't believe that you are.
IF Caley was put into the sole custody of the others in the world (you mentioned)
that have the very SAME COMBINED HARD ASPECTS as Casey and Caley had TOGETHER,
THEN YES, they could have the same result ending in the murder of Caley, a little 2 year old girl.

I was merely posting about their COMBINED HARD ASPECTS. That was mainly was my post was about.











Minderwiz said:
I'm NOT saying you are wrong - I'm saying that we need to exercise some caution.



Yes you can speculate but remember the limits, which was the point of my post and the point of my comments here. However lack of an Ascendant is a MAJOR detail and we should make real allowances for it.
First of all, I don't need to exercise some caution WHEN I KNOW what these
aspects are capable of doing
(again from my 'up close' experience of watching these very hard aspects)
Yes, I do have the same 'book knowledge' as other astrologers, but REAL EXPERIENCE
with these types of aspects, TO ME, is MUCH more valuable and accurate.

I don't need to put them under a microscope either. Oh, at one time I did UNTIL
I learned how hard aspects actually combust and cause problems out there
BETWEEN two people.




Minderwiz said:
Again my aim here is not to refute the aspects but to sound a note of caution. Whether there are 'enough' aspects is obviously something that can be debated, though I'm not sure it's something that can be objectively proved (either way) The aspects alone are insufficient evidence of guilt - if they were sufficient then all who had them would be guilty - but they are good evidence to consider, along with the factual considerations of means, opportunity and motive.
IF you have studied the various different types of murderers and serial killers, etc.
then you would understand what I was saying. I HAVE studied them (among
various other types of personalities, etc.)
and I KNOW what makes them tick by just looking at their HARD ASPECTS.

I don't need to get into such details to get there either. No astrologer does unless
he/she feels it is necessary FOR THEM to apply astrology in that way IF that
astrologer feels it is absolutely necessary according to their own desire for a
certain level of detail.
That, my friend, should be left up to the individual astrologer and not someone
telling them they 'should' do it this way or that way. Let them learn and do
it their own way.
I have learned from 'book knowledge' but learned BETTER from 'worldly knowledge.'






Minderwiz said:
To conclude:

I have not disputed your interpretations
Indeed I have not advanced any other interpretations, yet
I have questioned the reliability of the chart for Casey
I don't see any reason not to speculate or discuss, as long as we recognise the limits of the evidence
We might reach different conclusions or take different slants, but that is the nature of different approaches and who knows we might even reach the same conclusion!!

Can we talk about the COMBINED HARD ASPECTS BETWEEN CASEY AND CALEY IN THIS POST?
I did NOT post this thread for 'debating' or for lessons, but only to share about
the HARD ASPECTS BETWEEN their two charts. I was hoping that other AT members
might want to take a look at just these ASPECTS WITHOUT going through a
whole training or lecture session series.

Why don't you just take a look at the HARD ASPECTS BETWEEN them, without the microscope?
Can't you put down your astrology books for a moment, and look at the experience
of these type of aspects without the nth degree?
(I guess some astrologers stay in the books instead of in the experience of it)

You could just set up their (sunrise if you wish) SYNASTRY CHART
...and look ONLY at their hard aspects as I was doing...
...otherwise, to me, this becomes lost in a 'lesson and teaching and lecture' post
which was and is NOT my intention.
Again here is what my main post is about:

So, even leaving OUT Casey's Moon aspects you still have
the following aspects between mother and daughter that ARE BIG:
Caylee's Planets aspecting Casey's Planets:

Sun square Pluto
Mercury square Pluto
Mars opposition Pluto
Saturn square Pluto
Uranus square Saturn


Oh, almost forgot, that yes, there is a 10 degree orb between their Pluto opposition Sun but it is a known fact
that most astrologers allow a larger 10 degree orb when a planet is in aspect with the Sun or Moon...
Even without the Pluto opposition Sun aspect, between them, you still have the
most explosive aspect of:
Mars opposition Pluto
...even without the microscope!

MinderWIZ, with your very detailed lecture type of astrological knowledge that you display,
I would think that you could set up and post a most fantastic SYNASTRY (comparison) CHART
between these two, even using sunrise charts. If you do, I would love to see
how you explain the multitude of hard aspects between them.
wow...do you have any Liberian qualities? It seems that whatever I say, you are
on the opposite of it. Any Scorpio?...just wondering because you are so exact.

BTW, MinderWIZ, I am curious, just what experience do you have with 'actually' charting real people
(outside of the astrology books?)

:heart: HUGS
tarotlyn

ETA: I think our posts crossed in the air about the same time...LOL :laugh:
I am now reading your post...I hope it sticks to the HARD ASPECTS BETWEEN them both...
I like to keep things simple so people can understand.
 

Minderwiz

Well that was rather intemperate :)

I'm sorry that my caution and approach annoy you and I wasn't trying to give you a lecture but merely provide an explanation for my comments to those who are following the thread.

I also apologise for not using colour to emphasise my posts :)

So I'll turn my attention to those COMBINED HARD ASPECTS

tarotlyn said:
IF Caley was put into the sole custody of the others in the world (you mentioned)
that have the very SAME COMBINED HARD ASPECTS as Casey and Caley had TOGETHER,
THEN YES, they could have the same result ending in the murder of Caley, a little 2 year old girl.

Well that's clear enough! We don't need a chart for Casey, only the COMBINED HARD ASPECTS.

But if we don't need a chart for Casey, we don't need a chart for Caylee - ALL we need is the COMBINED HARD ASPECTS. The logic of this is that ANY parent born around 19th March 1986 (I'd allow a week either side but you might allow more), who has a child born around 9th August 2005 WILL abuse and most likely murder it.

Indeed we don't need a parental relationship - ANY person born around 19th March 1986 is prone to abuse and kill a child born around 9th August 2005 if they have access to it - say as a carer, uncle/aunt, babysitter, etc. There may even be some members of Aeclectic who have the same COMBINED HARD ASPECTS with a child in their care and now seemingly stand accused of their abuse and potential murder.

So we should find quite a few cases of such abuse and murder, the police and child protection agencies around the world should be knee deep in such cases involving parents and children born at the same time as Caylee and Caysee - or even more, as even the dates are unimportant - simply the COMBINED HARD ASPECTS.

But the reality of the situation is that no such flood of cases exists - The COMBINED HARD ASPECTS in themselves do not comform to reality.

Now I've taken your case to it's logical conclusion and I'm sure you'd point out the use of the word 'could' in your post quoted above, you did not use the word 'will' And I recognise that!

But 'could' implies that there are other factors at work than the COMBINED HARD ASPECTS. The COMBINED HARD ASPECTS don't give the full picture or possibly even the main part of the picture (otherwise the 'could' will regularly translate into 'did').

I am NOT saying that the COMBINED HARD ASPECTS are irrelevant but that we can't condemn Casey solely on their basis, we need further evidence. They are interesting but not conclusive.

How do we distinguish, astrologically, between those people with these COMBINED HARD ASPECTS and bring up their children in a caring fashion and those who have them and abuse or murder their children? The problem with using thousands of murder and abuse cases to draw conclusions is that the sample is not unbiased and there's no control group (i.e. the rest of the population with the same COMBINED HARD ASPECTS who DON'T abuse or offend) so we really don't have a clear idea of how important they are - do 90% of parents/carers with these COMBINED HARD ASPECTS abuse and murder, or is it 80% or 50% or 10% - What makes those who have them end up in a situation of abuse and even murder?

Of course that might not have been your intent on posting the thread - perhaps you merely wanted a response of 'WOW poor Caylee never had a chance!'

Perhaps she didn't but if Astrology is to be useful here, it should be able to differentiate between those who do and those who don't.

Edited to add:

tarotlyn said:
MinderWIZ, with your very detailed lecture type of astrological knowledge that you display,
I would think that you could set up and post a most fantastic SYNASTRY (comparison) CHART
between these two, even using sunrise charts. If you do, I would love to see
how you explain the multitude of hard aspects between them.
wow...do you have any Liberian qualities? It seems that whatever I say, you are
on the opposite of it. Any Scorpio?...just wondering because you are so exact.

Sadly in this case flattery will not get you very far LOL - I would do a synastry chart and post it but as you are aware I take a traditional approach and therefore it would not include any of the aspects involving Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, so it would not through any light on your post in terms of the patterns involving them. Of course that presents a challenge to me to see if there's any evidence besides the aspects you quote.

I'm exact for basically two reasons. firstly training - as a social scientist, and from an Astrological point of view because I have Saturn on my Ascendant - the traditional ruler of structures and by extension 'science' in its original meaning. My temperament is choleric with smaller dashes of melancholy and sanguine respectively - and I don't see myself as being opposite to you :) - except to the extent that my Saturn always urges caution (though my choleric side often ignores it)
 

tarotlyn

:):heart: commenting in 'pink' again:
Minderwiz said:
Well that was rather intemperate :)
I don't think it was any more intemperate than other's posts in this thread.
(if you are talking about excessiveness)






Minderwiz said:
I'm sorry that my caution and approach annoy you and I wasn't trying to give you a lecture but merely provide an explanation for my comments to those who are following the thread.

I also apologise for not using colour to emphasise my posts
No need to be sorry, you did not annoy me at all :heart:

ETA: What I meant by 'lecture' was not 'scolding.' To 'lecture' also means to give a lecture or
a lesson to a class, especially at the university level or higher. I didn't mean you were scolding me.







Minderwiz said:
I also apologise for not using colour to emphasise my posts :)

So I'll turn my attention to those COMBINED HARD ASPECTS
No need to apologize to me "for not using colour..." because it is
the choice of any member here. I have used it often on AT :D I just like color!:)







Minderwiz said:
Well that's clear enough! We don't need a chart for Casey, only the COMBINED HARD ASPECTS.

But if we don't need a chart for Casey, we don't need a chart for Caylee - ALL we need is the COMBINED HARD ASPECTS...
Thank you!







Minderwiz said:
Indeed we don't need a parental relationship - ANY person born around 19th March 1986 is prone to abuse and kill a child born around 9th August 2005 if they have access to it - say as a carer, uncle/aunt, babysitter, etc. There may even be some members of Aeclectic who have the same COMBINED HARD ASPECTS with a child in their care and now seemingly stand accused of their abuse and potential murder.
Yes, that could be possible. Don't forget this little girl was with her mother
for over 2 years and under the influence of those combined hard aspects.









Minderwiz said:
So we should find quite a few cases of such abuse and murder, the police and child protection agencies around the world should be knee deep in such cases involving parents and children born at the same time as Caylee and Caysee - or even more, as even the dates are unimportant - simply the COMBINED HARD ASPECTS.


But the reality of the situation is that no such flood of cases exists - The COMBINED HARD ASPECTS in themselves do not comform to reality.
If you watch the Nancy Grace program, they are knee deep in other cases
with similar COMBINED HARD ASPECTS. Other than this, you would probably
have to do a search for files at each police station in the world and gather the
COMBINED HARD ASPECTS of the parents and children involved in such cases,
keeping in mind that not all such cases would have such notoriety as this case.
It would take you more than just over night to know that the police in the world
are not blanketed with similar cases with similar or same combined hard aspects
between parents and their children, or aunts and children, uncles and children, etc.








Minderwiz said:
Now I've taken your case to it's logical conclusion and I'm sure you'd point out the use of the word 'could' in your post quoted above, you did not use the word 'will' And I recognise that!

But 'could' implies that there are other factors at work than the COMBINED HARD ASPECTS. The COMBINED HARD ASPECTS don't give the full picture or possibly even the main part of the picture (otherwise the 'could' will regularly translate into 'did').
No, I meant it as 'could,' in the sense that it 'could' depending on
how far along her Spiritual path that Casey, the mom, was at the time.
She came here and had a choice, as we all do, whether she would go on a more Spiritual path,
or GIVE IN to those COMBINED HARD ASPECTS with her daughter. This was her choice.
She could give in or not give in. Obviously her daughter is dead, so 'I believe' that
she DID GIVE IN to those hard combined aspects during certain transit times.

I merely used the word 'could' so that others could check out these combined hard aspects
between the mother and the daughter and then decide for themselves.









Minderwiz said:
I am NOT saying that the COMBINED HARD ASPECTS are irrelevant but that we can't condemn Casey solely on their basis, we need further evidence. They are interesting but not conclusive.
Maybe you can't, but I feel that after having seen and charted real people
(in the flesh), studied and counseled them (with these types of hard aspects),
that I 'could' state that 'I felt' she had crossed the line and had done this to her daughter.

This was my choice, to feel and think this, from these type of combined hard aspects.
And you had a choice not to agree.









Minderwiz said:
How do we distinguish, astrologically, between those people with these COMBINED HARD ASPECTS and bring up their children in a caring fashion and those who have them and abuse or murder their children? The problem with using thousands of murder and abuse cases to draw conclusions is that the sample is not unbiased and there's no control group (i.e. the rest of the population with the same COMBINED HARD ASPECTS who DON'T abuse or offend) so we really don't have a clear idea of how important they are - do 90% of parents/carers with these COMBINED HARD ASPECTS abuse and murder, or is it 80% or 50% or 10% - What makes those who have them end up in a situation of abuse and even murder?
You ask how we do it? My answer is simple: We just get out there
into the world and CHART people and we gain experience and 'people' knowledge
rather than 'just' book knowledge. That is how we do it. We find out for ourselves
by doing the charting and counseling out there in the real world. Book knowledge
is a good take off point, but we need real experience from real people that
have these types of aspects. That is how because otherwise anyone can write
anything they want in a book or course on astrology, but until they have actually
experienced these types of hard aspects through counseling and observing first hand,
then they are stuck in a book and lost in details.









Minderwiz said:
Of course that might not have been your intent on posting the thread - perhaps you merely wanted a response of 'WOW poor Caylee never had a chance!'
I think I had stated clearly my purpose for posting this thread.







Minderwiz said:
Sadly in this case flattery will not get you very far LOL

...I would do a synastry chart and post it but as you are aware I take a traditional approach and therefore it would not include any of the aspects involving Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, so it would not through any light on your post in terms of the patterns involving them.
I definitely was not flattering you, sorry you think that. I just thought that
you knew enough 'book knowledge' to be able to do your own analysis of these
COMBINED HARD ASPECTS.

BUT, now that you say you do not take into consideration Uranus, Neptune, or Pluto,
I believe that your take on the matter might very well be of minimal help to my post,
at least in my mind. In that, 'you' think that is not possible to have such COMBINED HARD ASPECTS
(that 'could' have caused the murder of Caylee Anthony by her mother Casey Anthony)
because you do not include Uranus, Neptune, or Pluto and they are not traditional to 'you.'
...whereas, I do include them and think they are of great value.
That of course is probably subject for an entirely different post.







Minderwiz said:
... I have Saturn on my Ascendant - the traditional ruler of structures and by extension 'science' in its original meaning. My temperament is choleric with smaller dashes of melancholy and sanguine respectively - and I don't see myself as being opposite to you :) - except to the extent that my Saturn always urges caution (though my choleric side often ignores it)
Well, Saturn, on your ascendant explains everything. I well understand your
caution now. The scientist part I get, but the social part I do not see as much
with Saturn in such involvement. The following is not flattery: To be truthful,
I LOVE Saturian people, my late husband had Saturn on his ascendant.

So 10 years of charting him (a Scorpio)... I knew him WELL. Oh, I know, you might
say that you need 1,000's of other case studies before I 'could' say such things...
...but when you have lived with someone with Saturn smack dab on their ascendant
as I have, then you really do have first hand EXPERIENCE of Saturian traits,
and not just from astrology books.

The same goes for COMBINE HARD ASPECTS between two people.
When you live them, breath them watch them. see them, counsel them, THEN
you know and can surmise the effects of COMBINED HARD ASPECTS.

Maybe someone else, that DOES INCLUDE Uranus, Pluto, and Neptune for consideration,
could analyze these COMBINED HARD ASPECTS which we have been talking about.

:heart: HUGS
tarotlyn
 

Wonderwoman

Lunar Eclipse in Sagittarius, Full Moon Revelations

Tarotlyn and Minderwiz, please do correct me if my amateur observations are on the wrong path.

Do either of you feel/think that the Three Eclipses we are experiencing during this month will serve to enlighten and bring about the truth regarding Caylee's death?? It seems rather poignant that these eclipses happen at the same time of the trial....

Ww