Sacred Empty Places.

Rosanne

venicebard said:
I still say, would he not simply have meant "blessing" to most people in tarot's day? especially since his hand is raised in same (in the holy Marseilles, though not perhaps south of the Alps).

Yes well I agree with you on this VB! It is card 5 and a natural place for the Blessing Hand- if one was trying to find a natural order for the cards. Like the Natural order for where Death would be is 13 and the Hanged Man at 12 (the 12th man Judas). I think this 'Natural order' could tell us much if anyone could work it out. Perhaps you? You see the Devil is at Natural order at 15 I reckon-Thrice blasphemed !

(Have fun searching further wells, R.)

I went to Milan to do exactly this

Only the Sforza Castle archives on printed matter was closed for renovations and I could not see anything. I had written to them- prior to the trip and they had said I was welcome to look at their collection- even with their letter- it did not work out. Poo Bah!
~Rosanne

venicebard

Rosanne said:
. . . and the Hanged Man at 12 (the 12th man Judas).

Never thought of this! thanx.

I think this 'Natural order' could tell us much if anyone could work it out.

The problem is not so much working it out as convincing others.

You see the Devil is at Natural order at 15 I reckon-Thrice blasphemed !

This went over my head: I had figured that whereas XX LeJugement was FAIR combat (two ten-fingereds), XV LeDiable was a situation where one combatant (accent on FIRST syllable) was deprived of one of his or her hands, making it UNFAIR.

Rosanne

venicebard said:
Never thought of this! thanx. (12th Man)

It came from Kwaw and I had an epihany- so you're welcome !

The problem is not so much working it out as convincing others.

Well we both have different styles of writing...... and also you are coming from a different direction in some ways. I am coming from the of how people see images and place them with a number. Perhaps if I could say it this way- if there was God, you know like a Michangelo, that could not be mistaken in a Tarot image, where is the most natural place to put his image- at 0 because he cannot be numbered, at 1 because he is the biggest Kahuna and one is the monad, or at 21 because that card would gain the highest points and that is the direction of Heaven- up there- up the ladder? What place would be most natural? Kinda different to your exploration.

This went over my head: I had figured that whereas XX LeJugement was FAIR combat (two ten-fingereds), XV LeDiable was a situation where one combatant (accent on FIRST syllable) was deprived of one of his or her hands, making it UNFAIR.

It is his right hand that is up in action- and he does not bless- he blasphemes- so he is triple 5, and is like Peter of the Bible who denied three times, the Cock crowed 3 times- these could not be at 15- because of the blessing /blaspheming Hand should be at 5 or 15 (not 10 because that is an even number) We would see it in our back brains more clearly if the hand raised was his left- the sinister hand. Then- blessing= Love= Balspheming= Fear we would understand naturally. Like the dreaded smacking hand- do you know if you are right handed, the statistics show that smacking parents hold the child with the right hand and smack with the left.

~Rosanne

venicebard

Rosanne said:
Perhaps if I could say it this way- if there was God, you know like a Michangelo, that could not be mistaken in a Tarot image, where is the most natural place to put his image- at 0 because he cannot be numbered, at 1 because he is the biggest Kahuna and one is the monad, or at 21 because that card would gain the highest points and that is the direction of Heaven- up there- up the ladder? What place would be most natural? Kinda different to your exploration.

Not so much, methinks, since most of bardic lore to me has a quite natural 'feel' to it. God to Gnostics would, of course, be 1, opposite The World, as He is not no-thing, merely no-thing having yet differentiated itself from the One. To Judaism the Unity of God is paramount, also.

It is his right hand that is up in action- and he does not bless- he blasphemes- so he is triple 5, and is like Peter of the Bible who denied three times, the Cock crowed 3 times- these could not be at 15- because of the blessing /blaspheming Hand should be at 5 or 15 (not 10 because that is an even number)

Hence the blaspheming hand is the 'missing' one implied in the number 15.

venicebard

venicebard said:
God to Gnostics would, of course, be 1, opposite The World, as He is not no-thing, merely no-thing having yet differentiated itself from the One.

I should have said, "to Gnostic dualists," as 1 in tarot is the mountebank or trickster (alef-the-doer, Aesop's fox-trickster, no doubt), suggesting a dooBLUH ahntahnDRUH in which 1 is both the real Unity of the audience's attention all being drawn to one spot and the trickster aspect of what is taken for God by the profane, namely the demiurge-Creator, a trickster worthy of the flattery of the religious, but not of the wise Gnostic, who knows the Creator to be the Son, the part of Man (God's individuation) that has suffered the Fall (drawn, by sensation, away from reason) and therefore must redeem Itself. Hmm. Duplicity in Unity, who knew!

(Don't know if there were any Gnostic duelists or not.)

Rosanne

It has been three weeks, a little train wreck or two, and it is quiet in here once more.
Me thinks I should get the search Engine to speak once more.

'WHAT SAY YOU SEARCH ENGINE?"

.......hmmmm to the sounds of silence, I tap my fingers. Wait I hear the sounds of puffing and hissing...

"You do not get it Rosanne. No one likes to take part in pissing competitions, though they like to read them. You know like Fire Engine chasers or tornado chasers. They just take their cameras and forget the buckets, stand on the sidelines and just watch.....Try again. I will help by making searching me difficult. Ask something interesting for a change...."

"OK. Interesting Huh?"

Why do all the TdM Lovers/L'amovrevx card show the central figure presumably a male without Hose/Leggings/trousers/pantaloons? Why is He Bare legged and unshod? Even the fool has the remains of leggings. What is this anomaly explaining?

~Rosanne

Bernice

Just had a quck read through this thread - this 'natural order' intrigues me.
Seems to be based on religion, but as people in those times were politically and socially 'religious', this seems very feasible.

Please come back and show this 'natural' order for the trumps... everso please... I'll be looking in.

Bee

Moonbow

I suspect many people spend more time researching and contemplating than posting, and its very normal for this part of Aeclectic, it goes through fits and starts.

Personally, I like to see ideas emerge during the thread sometimes, that's how the monkey appeared to us all in the Cary sheet (thank you Rosanne).

Rosanne

Hi Bernice!
There is a thread called 'Natural Sequences:Marrying Image to Number' and it is here http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=106542&page=1&pp=10 in the Historic Research Forum.

Hi Moonbow- yes I too like to see ideas emerge from a thread. A lot of people read and do not post..True! Also a lot of people read when then is a fire; one thread that had about 200 views all of sudden jumped 1000 views once a fire had started. That is the nature of things. I am sure that many of new members have questions of an historic nature....and the Historic Forum is the place to ask them.....I encourage them to ask away. There are plenty of knowledgeable people to consider their questions, and interested people to add their point of view.

~Rosanne

Bernice

Cheers Rosanne for the thread link

I particularly noted this, from you:

"Early decks with strange numbering (or no numbering) to what is now accepted, indicate that (at least to me) maybe the cards were individual images- not part of a linked series (allegory) and those images maybe numerical in concept."

Bolded text: This is a thought that keeps returning to me - that maybe the ordering/numbering of the cards came later for card-playing and ever since then people have been trying (and succeeding) to assign a 'story-line' to them.

Bee