Interesting comment by Ronald Decker

Ross G Caldwell

Yatima said:

No talk about “essence!” Is there? No “essence” is related to you. Or is there any? So what do you want from me…

Now, in a philosophical note, I added, I stated: “Important is indeed the philosophical basis: Whether one wants a “substance” (sub-stare: standing beneath as unchanging essence or structure)—that is the Aristotelean way (in its reception through Descartes) or “process” (which has “nothing” as its fixed center, but is “empty” and therefore a “living whole”)—as was the way of Plato (via Bergson, Whitehead, Deleuze, Derrida…). I side with the latter.”

Have I related you to “essence” or presupposed that you have this view? It was a philosophical statement.

If you read carefully, you will realize that you have taken up the term first in a follow up in relating it to me, personally! Look again! This was the basis to draw on it further…So, Who has been the one to talk about “essence” in relation to us? I, that I know, was not the one…

You have noted further that you are not interest to get into a philosophical discourse. Fine! So then, don’t do it, but don’t blame me…

This is really quixotic! I have no time for shadow-boxing. I will not proceed on these lines of misunderstanding and misconception.

Yatima

Plenty of talk about essence, and "essenceless essence" too.
It's no use trying to make a Fool out of me Yatima :) I read clearly - you must take responsibility for your words.

Quote:

"Have I related you to “essence” or presupposed that you have this view?"

Yes, you have -

Quote [post of 7 August] -

"However, although I have realized that you recognize the evolution of the Tarot as part of its "own" history, I have also understood from your words that you want to differentiat a certain stream of manifestation as Tarot and reserve the name and "essence" for it. Something, I would like to avoid...

Yatima"

"YOU want to ... reserve the name and 'essence' for it".

That's me you're referring to [unless I don't understand what the word "you" means], and the "it" is Tarot. In fact I have not wanted to reserve the "essence" of Tarot to or for anything. I never used the word essence, except to borrow it from you.

When you quote yourself above, you removed the "essenceless essence" that you side with - why? The part you snipped was "Plato named this "essenceless essence" "khora". I side with the latter." That is, you side with Plato's "essenceless essence", which is your gloss (since I don't think Plato ever used the term "essenceless essence") on his term "khora."

You related it to yourself *directly* - now you say, I quote "So, Who has been the one to talk about “essence” in relation to us? I, that I know, was not the one…" - Yes, you were the one!

This is precisely why it is impossible to get into a philosophical discussion with you, since you deny you said things that are in fact part of the record.

Historians are down to earth people. Philosophers (not that I'm accusing you of being one) tend to lose track of their words. Better to stick to history :)
 

jmd

Interesting indeed where an 'Interesting comment by Ronald Decker' may lead! :)

This thread has taken many twists and turns, from discussions about Tarot's possible origin, to whether it has an 'essence', to the Marseille sequence and its own relation to tarot's essential characteristics.

I personally do tend to consider that tarot does indeed have essential characteristics, and that it reflects an unmanifest Ür-Tarot - but that perhaps better belongs to other areas of the Forums, as it does transcend the historical.

For what it's worth, and as has been also listed by Ross, I too have made earlier mention of a possible 5 x 14 attribution for the Visconti. But as Ross says, this arises as one of the 'common-sensical' possibilities as one reflects on the images of the extant deck. To show that this is a genuine possibility for the deck, based on more solid historical meticulous work, has certainly come a long way and wonderfully presented on Huck's trionfi.com site.

The arithmetical considerations of neo-pythagoreans, embedded in neo-platonic thought, are also undoubtedly important when one considers the important currents of thought permeating the region and times being considered and out of which remnants of tarot cards, poems or titles ('taraux', etc) emerge. Yet I personally do not sense that the mathematical played in as much to its creative overall structure (as 10x4 + 4x4 + 22) as it may have in the geometric influences incorporated in individual designs (eg, the possibility of a double-square as card ratio, rather than golden rectangle; or lines of ongoing contact from card to card when placed together - the circles made of two adjacent sword cards as specific example).

With others here, I tend to consider that Tarot has what may be called a pre-history. For myself, the most important of these is the design to which so many would have been exposed to in the hieroglyphic designs upon mediaeval cathedrals. In addition, I have with time increasing confidence that Filipas's thesis of alphabetic masquerade pattern within the Marseille in fact gives it its overall structured pattern, and suspect that this arose at the time, or near the time, of the expulsion of Huguenots from (southern) France.

Other cards, whether trionfi-type or of the type proposed by roppo (sets of saints) may also of course have been influential - and further research will undoubtedly add to our store of collective knowledge and influence upon Tarot emergence.

For myself, I personally tend to view tarot as essentially and characteristically incorporating a particular structure and order - as reflected in what has come to be called the 'Marseille' pattern. Other decks, in their deviations, do just that: deviate - whether or not they become dominant patterns in their own right.
 

Huck

le pendu said:
It seems we are agreeing to call "Tarot" the form of 22+16+40.

Anything other than that form may have been part of it's historical development, but unless we have complete confidence that at it's inception it was intended as a 22+16+40, we are unwilling to call it "Tarot". Therefore, we have no 15th Century Tarot decks, as there is no complete 22+16+40, correct?

So what is the first Tarot deck? Boiardo? Does it matter that we also need to have the same familiar "characters"? The Tarot de Paris? Or do we need the correct "iconography" also? Does Tarot not become Tarot until TdM?

And what happens to Kabbalah and Pythagorean theories without the "22" if we agree that Tarot grew from non-tarot... non 22 trump decks?

thanks!

robert

Playing card history knows versions with shortened decks, which also run with the name Tarocchi, Tarocchino, Tarock. Also it knows curious decks with unnumbered cards and shortened trump sets (Lucca Tarocchi). Mantegna Tarocchi is a manifested name.

:) Somehow we've the right of every speaker to mean with "Tarot", what he defines it to be. I agree with Ross, that it would make sense to use the name since its use in history, since 1505, decks before that time are better adressed "Trionfi decks".

But ... :) somehow we've at Trionfi.com a marketing problem. Talking of "Trionfi" is no good choice to get publical attention, people don't realize that Trionfi relate to the history of Tarot .... for heaven's sake, of course we should use the term Tarot, the problem to get publical attention is an important one ... :)
 

Huck

Namadev said:
[***This first link wasn't known before I put it in evidence.
It is maybe not pertinent but it's there all right.
Throwing light on this isn't irrelevant.
It's a beginning...
[/B]

We knew about the relation Boiardo-Viti+Viti-brother-Raphael, as we made some research about Viti, when discussing the Boiardo-deck. The Viti-brother is suspected to have painted muses in Urbino, so he was of interest in Mantegna contexts. Though true, we didn't reflect the Pythagoras picture in the "school of athens" in the context, which is a detail between many details on this specific painting. It's true, what Ross said, that Pythagoras was of course well known in 15th century as a hero of mathematic - as we all know, mathematic is a world full of mysteries and it isn't exhausted, when realizing, that

1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12=78

, so Pythagoras, from which de facto much is assumed and not much proven (actually he was part of a mystery cult), is connectable in the phantasy of 15th century man to many, many details.


***Yes again.
But the presence of the Basileus and the Concil of Ferrare-Florence and the presence of many Greek scholars in Northen Italy is an historical back-ground indicating at least a revival of neo-platonism by Hellenistist scholars. Why should platonism snip pythagorism?
Cf Theory of proportions in arts including musicology, painting,etc

Alberti, active in the Ferrarese circle, wrote in 1435 a deciding text to the proportions. It's possible to look in this text, if "pythagorean ideas" was important for its Genesis.

Were the virtues of the same value in the Greek world as in the West?

***Now, this is the lign I don't intend to cross.
Whether there are neo-platonic elemenst in the Quattrocento miniatures or tarocchi such as the Chariot linked to Plato's Phaedus is a point of interest when studiying it's iconography.
The debate is open.
But I focus exclusively on the numerical structure INDEPENDENTLY of it's iconography, neo-platonic or not, partially or totally.
The structure is completely in it's whole and in it'sinherent parts PYTHAGOREAN.

Alain

Is there any mention about a 16+40+22=78 -structure in a text earlier to the genesis of Tarot?
 

Namadev

Huck said:
snipped




Alberti, active in the Ferrarese circle, wrote in 1435 a deciding text to the proportions. It's possible to look in this text, if "pythagorean ideas" was important for its Genesis.

***That's a "positive" information, Huck...



Is there any mention about a 16+40+22=78 -structure in a text earlier to the genesis of Tarot?


***We have the different elements separately in the Arithmology of Nicomaque of Gerase and Theon of Smyrne.
But, I haven't yet found the 78 shown in it's elements : 22+16+40.
But, as it is mathematically necssary, it must have been discovered before myself!
Research is question of time and luck!
 

Huck

Namadev said:
***We have the different elements separately in the Arithmology of Nicomaque of Gerase and Theon of Smyrne.
But, I haven't yet found the 78 shown in it's elements : 22+16+40.
But, as it is mathematically necssary, it must have been discovered before myself!
Research is question of time and luck!

Why do you think, it's mathematically necessary? For what reason? Before a specific date nobody knew about a Tarot with 78 cards. What makes a grouping of

10x4
4x4
21 (=3x7 ?)(=1+2+3+4+5+6 ?)
1

specifically interesting on the mathematical side? Just, cause 78=1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12?

6x3
3x3
15= (1+2+3+4+5)
1

is builded by a similar code. This results in a 43 - not very elegant.

15x5
5x5
28 (=1+2+3+4+5+6+7)
1

Result 129. Hm. ... 3x43=129

21x6
6x6
36 (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8)
1

Result 199. Interesting? I think not. Or?

3x2
2x2
10 (1+2+3+4)
1

Result 21 ... oh great. 21 =1+2+3+4+5+6. Interesting.


and

1x1
1x1
6 (=1+2+3)
1

Result=9

and

0x0
0x0
3 (1+2)
1
result= 4

0x(-1)
(-1)x(-1)
1
1
result= 3



Let's go on.

28x7
7x7
45 (=1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9)
1

Result 291

36x8 + 8x8 + 55 +1 = 408
45x9 + 9x9 + 66 +1 = 553
55x10 + 10x10 + 78 + 1 = 729 (remarkable, that's 3^5)

... but, I'm not overwhelmed.



3 =1+2
4 (+1)
9 (+5) /+ 4
21 (+12) /+ 7 = 1+2+3+4+5+6
43 (+22) /+10
78 (+35) /+13 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12
129 (+51) /+16
199 (+70) /+19
291 (+92) /+22
408 (+117) /+25
553 (+145) /+28
729 (+176) /+31
939 (+210) /+34
1186 (+247) /+37
etc..

maybe 10340 = 1+2+3 ... +144 is another number, where the 2 lines cross again. ... :) I'm too lazy. That's a problem for number theory.
 

Namadev

Huck said:
Why do you think, it's mathematically necessary? For what reason? Before a specific date nobody knew about a Tarot with 78 cards. What makes a grouping of

10x4
4x4
21 (=3x7 ?)(=1+2+3+4+5+6 ?)
1

specifically interesting on the mathematical side? Just, cause 78=1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12?


6x3
3x3
15= (1+2+3+4+5)
1

is builded by a similar code. This results in a 43 - not very elegant.

15x5
5x5
28 (=1+2+3+4+5+6+7)
1

Result 129. Hm. ... 3x43=129

21x6
6x6
36 (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8)
1

Result 199. Interesting? I think not. Or?

3x2
2x2
10 (1+2+3+4)
1

Result 21 ... oh great. 21 =1+2+3+4+5+6. Interesting.


and

1x1
1x1
6 (=1+2+3)
1

Result=9

and

0x0
0x0
3 (1+2)
1
result= 4

0x(-1)
(-1)x(-1)
1
1
result= 3



Let's go on.

28x7
7x7
45 (=1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9)
1

Result 291

36x8 + 8x8 + 55 +1 = 408
45x9 + 9x9 + 66 +1 = 553
55x10 + 10x10 + 78 + 1 = 729 (remarkable, that's 3^5)

... but, I'm not overwhelmed.



3 =1+2
4 (+1)
9 (+5) /+ 4
21 (+12) /+ 7 = 1+2+3+4+5+6
43 (+22) /+10
78 (+35) /+13 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12
129 (+51) /+16
199 (+70) /+19
291 (+92) /+22
408 (+117) /+25
553 (+145) /+28
729 (+176) /+31
939 (+210) /+34
1186 (+247) /+37
etc..

maybe 10340 = 1+2+3 ... +144 is another number, where the 2 lines cross again. ... :) I'm too lazy. That's a problem for number theory.


Hi Huck,

I've read your post again and again and I must admit that finally I didn't understand anything.
I do not mean that your mathematical constructions were aberrant but I cannot visualize them in a geometrical coherent figure such as shown in the Pythagoean arithmogical geometric Triangle of base 12 :
http:tarots.free.fr/structure-en.cadre.htm.
In Pythagorism, numbers and specifically linked to SPACE.
Triangulars build Triangles,
Squares, Lozands
Pyramidals, Pyramids
Etc

In French :
"Les pythagoriciens édifièrent la route qui aboutit aux nombres polyédraux dont le sqelette est une structure à trois dimesions.
Le triangle se généralise dans la pyramide, assemblage de 4, et le carré dans le cube à 6 faces.
Aux nombres figurés triangulaires et carrés correspondent ainsi aux nombres figurés pyramidaux et cubiques dont les *gnomons* successifs ne sont plus des lignes de points mais des surfaces.
Le tétrèdre (4 faces, 4 sommets , 6 arêtes) constitue la pyramide la plus simple et la plus harmonieuse : ses quatre faces sont des triangles équilatéraux à côtés tous égaux à eux-mêmes)"
Gérardin, Le mystère des Nombres.

The Triangle of base 12 is such a Triangle.

The Byzantin mathematician Psellos (Xth century)wrote :
"Avec trois triangles équilatéraux accolés par un sommet unique, on obtient l'angle solide de la pyramide tétraèdre, avce quatre celui de l'octaèdre et avec cinq, celui de l'icosaèdre"

This arithmology is in clear relation with Plato's and the 'theory des cinq corps "
In Platonism, I see the "Arithmological structure" as an "Intelligle" (Plato's Ideas) and the Tarot as as perceptible by the senses : "sensible"

Alain
 

Namadev

Errata

Namadev said:
Hi Huck,

I've read your post again and again and I must admit that finally I didn't understand anything.
I do not mean that your mathematical constructions were aberrant but I cannot visualize them in a geometrical coherent figure such as shown in the Pythagoean arithmogical geometric Triangle of base 12 :
***http:tarots.free.fr/structure-en/cadre.htm.
In Pythagorism, numbers and specifically linked to SPACE.
Triangulars build Triangles,
Squares, Lozands
Pyramidals, Pyramids
Etc

In French :
"Les pythagoriciens édifièrent la route qui aboutit aux nombres polyédraux dont le sqelette est une structure à trois dimesions.
Le triangle se généralise dans la pyramide, assemblage de 4, et le carré dans le cube à 6 faces.
Aux nombres figurés triangulaires et carrés correspondent ainsi aux nombres figurés pyramidaux et cubiques dont les *gnomons* successifs ne sont plus des lignes de points mais des surfaces.
Le tétrèdre (4 faces, 4 sommets , 6 arêtes) constitue la pyramide la plus simple et la plus harmonieuse : ses quatre faces sont des triangles équilatéraux à côtés tous égaux à eux-mêmes)"
Gérardin, Le mystère des Nombres.

***The Triangle of base 12 is an equilateral Triangle :
12 "dots" of each of it's 3 sides.


The Byzantin mathematician Psellos (Xth century)wrote :
"Avec trois triangles équilatéraux accolés par un sommet unique, on obtient l'angle solide de la pyramide tétraèdre, avce quatre celui de l'octaèdre et avec cinq, celui de l'icosaèdre"

This arithmology is in clear relation with Plato's and the 'theory des cinq corps "
In Platonism, I see the "Arithmological structure" as an "Intelligle" (Plato's Ideas) and the Tarot as as perceptible by the senses : "sensible"

Alain
 

Namadev

Elements of meditation

Hi,
3Food for thought"


Plutarque :
La Méditation pythagoricienne

"Rien n'est aussi special à la philosophie pythagoricienne que l'usage des symboles tels que l'on emploie dans la célébration des mystères.
C'est là une manière de Parler qui tient à fois du SILENCE et du DISCOURS"
Couls someone translate these quotes, please?
Thanks.

1)Les 4 éléments

Platon expose dans le Timée la théorie pythagoricienne de la genèse du CORPS DU COSMOS par le DEMIURGE.

"D'abords que le FEU, la TERRE, l'EAU et l'AIR soient des CORPS, cela est sans doute évident pour quiconque.
Or, l'ESSENCE du CORPS possède toujours l'EPAISSEUR.
Mais toute épaisseur enveloppe nécessairement la nature de la SURFACE.
ET TOUTE SUFACE DE NATURE RECTILIGNE EST COMPOS2E DE TRIANGLES"


Ce sont les QUATRE ELEMENTS quo strcutureront leglobe dont la nature est shérique.

"Le Démiurge a placé l'Air et l'Eau entre le Feu et la Terre.
Ces éléments sont au nombre de 4 et ont formé le Corps du Cosmos.
Marmonisé PROPORTIONNELLEMENT, celui-ci est AMITIE."

The four Tetractys are this BODY of the WORLD.

2)The 16 or 4 squares are a Zodiacal circle : enceinte externe = 12, enceinte interne=4 (l4 angles of the Zodiac)
Selon la théorie platonicienne "12 est le nombre de la perfection. Il trouve son expression dans le dodécaèdre, la figure solide à 12 côtés égaux qui, de tous les corps solides, se rapproche le plus de la spère, et qui, à ce titre, symbolise les formes de la mtière réee..
La sphère étant à l'mage du Cosmos, il s'ensuit que douze est le nombre appropié pour sa division.
Et la Roue Zodiacale a donc été divisée en 12 parties égales qui sont les 12 signes du Zoqiaque"
J DORSAN

Maybe a reminiscence of this Theory, in the KIng of Spades of the TdM with the Sign of the Sagittaire on the bottom of the trone..

3)The 22 in the Pyramidal Disposition could then be, in my point of view, the enigmatic SOUL OF THE WORLD.

Alain BOUGEAREL
 

jmd

Let us have a specific look at Namadev's proposed base-12 triangle as the foundation or basis for a 78-card deck.

Firstly, let me re-iterate that irrespective as to its historical merit, it is a geometrical insight which adds to the inter-relationship of the numbers used in Tarot's division which is suberb.

For the sake of ease of access, I have also attached a copy of Namadev's division of the base-12 triangle.

The 4x4 square and the 4x10 suits would have been without any doubt, to my mind, also thought about easily during earlier times as a square of base four (16) and four triangles of base four (each 10) - as indicated by the outer triangles by Namadev. For anyone which even plays a little with geometry, this would have come so easily as to have been 'obvious'.

Also, the 'tetractys' (or base-4 triangle) of ten points was well known - probably better than the base-4 square.

78, as a number, would likewise have been easily observed to have been a triangular number - and an important one, given its base is 12.

It could therefore have been possible for someone to have also similarly discovered what has been presented by Namadev. However, the question is not whether others have likewise made this discovery, but whether it played a role in either the formation or the direction of tarot.

This is quite a separate matter.

If one reflects on a tetrahedron of edge-four, the total is not 22 - nor even 21, which would also have been quite significant - but rather 20 (base layer of 10 + next layer of 6 + next of 3 + top of 1).

Yet it is indeed fascinating that if one creates the simplest kind of 'template' for a construction, three triangles are sufficient (as given by Namadev). If each triangle has a base of four, this does indeed provide the 22 points.

But, again, was this a discovery which, if made earlier than by Namadev, came prior to, or subsequently to tarot's arousal?

For myself, the question has various layers itself.

On a mundane level, I suspect it is unlikely to have been noted by earlier neo-pythagoreans of the times under consideration.

On a spiritual level, however, it was there all along - in the similar manner that the number e existed prior to its discovery.

Tarot exhibits, then, a multifold mathematical aspect, of which we have the overall various allusions already made actually being there, without necessitating that those specific considerations were also historically important:
  • line base 4 = 4 (suits)
  • triangle base 4 = 10 (number in each suit)
  • square base 4 = 16 (courts)
  • pentagon base 4 = 22 (atouts)
  • total: 4 x 10 + 16 + 22 = 78
With the additional interesting aspect being twofold: on the one hand the total being itself a triangular number of an important (and heavenly) numbered base; and that the pentagonal number can be altered in a manner demonstrated by Namadev to transcend its two-dimensional limitations and become, as a consequence, a three-dimensional tetrahedron - with again not only edge four, but with four faces (of necessity) arising from only three depicted ones.

If these had been considered by early Tarot creators, then, as the tetrahedron has only twenty parts or points, would it not have maintained two cards without number? Or is the other indicated by with-holding a name!?

If there is Kabalistic influence in the deck, then it would also have undoubtedly been deemed important to want to maintain 21 (and only 21) out of the 22 numbered (yet also maintain the 22 in total), to achieve that other important and gate-opening triangular number (which utilises only the first three digits when written in Hindo-Arabic form), viz, 231.