Marseilles Pips meanings?

Bernice

'Vana, that post-link I gave is in this thread (about Flornoy meanings...):

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=72455

Couldn't remember the thread but then found it (thread link) at the top right of the post. (I've never noticed that before).

Re. Mels post explaining and describing the elemental natures/qualities:

Fire = Dryness + Heat

Air = Heat + Moisture

Water = Moisture + Cold

Earth = Cold + Dryness

Well Mel, I have to admit that the descriptions as you've given them are so clear and and comprehensive that they can be used and applied from scratch, just like the astro-spread. You have a gift for concise and structured thinking.

But, sorry, but there's a 'but'.... In my mind Coldness has a separative action/quality - contracts & condenses. And if paired with another element, say Moistness, then the resulting quality would be, for me, a 'flowing chilliness', which could be likened to 'cool emotions', 'an objective outlook', 'indifference(which you've listed) &/or 'disinterest', 'not very socially inclined', 'hard-hearted', 'aloofness' etc. (keeping it brief here).

Now I do realise that you are speaking of the 'elements' in relation to the Humours (I think?).

"I think the only rule is to know the system. I mean really know it!"

Which means I'll have to bone-up on the Humours.......... yet another approach to take on board. Lol, I'm a mine of dis-jointed information!

HoT: Sorry, I misunderstood you. Thought you'd cracked a chinese appliction for the pips! (rueful grin...)

'Vana: You said:

But there is a problem (or not, hard to say) for me, both with using numerological attribs and with the 5-phase attribs - the different suits ascend and descend differently!

Yes, the suits as used in early gaming do have different ascending/descending values. I like the idea, quirky but it appeals to me. I've been trying out a couple of ways to try and incorporate this idea with a 'chinese model'. One such idea is to switch the 'generating' and 'controlling' functions of the odd & even numbers for two of the suits. Not sure if I've said it clearly....

Bee

Melanchollic

Bernice said:
Now I do realise that you are speaking of the 'elements' in relation to the Humours (I think?).Which means I'll have to bone-up on the Humours.......... yet another approach to take on board. Lol, I'm a mine of dis-jointed information!

The standard nature of the elements remain consistant, whether or not one relates them to the humors and temperaments. But my source is Aristotle's On Generation and Corruption.

http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/a/aristotle/corruption/book2.html

Again, this is THE authority on the nature of the four elements. It was the standard for all medicine, alchemy, astrology and philosophy.

Bernice said:
But, sorry, but there's a 'but'.... In my mind Coldness has a separative action/quality - contracts & condenses. And if paired with another element, say Moistness, then the resulting quality would be, for me, a 'flowing chilliness', which could be likened to 'cool emotions', 'an objective outlook', 'indifference(which you've listed) &/or 'disinterest', 'not very socially inclined', 'hard-hearted', 'aloofness' etc. (keeping it brief here).

I hate to point out the obvious, but modern science also agrees with Aristotle that Heat expands and separates (think evaporation or distillation here) and that Cold contracts and binds. Perhaps you are letting the popular usage of 'cold' in the English language (as in a 'cold' person, the 'cold' shoulder, 'cold' hearted) influence you here?

SolSionnach

Melanchollic said:
Fire = Dryness + Heat

Air = Heat + Moisture

Water = Moisture + Cold

Earth = Cold + Dryness

Thanks, Mel. I'm printing this up and will be meditating on it for a bit.
This conversation is so slow - because Bee's in England, I'm in Texas, and you're in Japan! Just the timezone conversions could drive us all crazy...

Bernice said:
'Vana, that post-link I gave is in this thread (about Flornoy meanings...):
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=72455

Thanks! Another thread with Ayumi in it...

Bernice said:
Couldn't remember the thread but then found it (thread link) at the top right of the post. (I've never noticed that before).

Ah! So desu ka! (sorry, Japanese - rather like - Oh! No kidding!)

Bernice said:
Re. Mels post explaining and describing the elemental natures/qualities:
Well Mel, I have to admit that the descriptions as you've given them are so clear and and comprehensive that they can be used and applied from scratch, just like the astro-spread. You have a gift for concise and structured thinking.

I think I remember reading about the Powers in a Lee Lehmann astro book - they look really familiar to me.

Bernice said:
::snip:: 'Vana: You said:Yes, the suits as used in early gaming do have different ascending/descending values. I like the idea, quirky but it appeals to me. I've been trying out a couple of ways to try and incorporate this idea with a 'chinese model'. One such idea is to switch the 'generating' and 'controlling' functions of the odd & even numbers for two of the suits. Not sure if I've said it clearly....

Bee

I understand where you are going. It seems that there needs to be some kind of violence done to something - either the numerological meanings (and throw out the 1<->10 changes) or visa versa.
OTOH, there are those neat number elemental diagrams of Mel's, which give the numbers elemental functions - that would work in either direction... and when you add it to suit elements, then you can see the Powers either working together or at odds (as Mel showed with the 3s and the 5s earlier on, either here or in the astro spread).

I rather like that way of looking at it. Must cogitate further.

Of course, it's a rainy day in South Texas, and I recently decided that it was time to just finish up about 4 knitting projects that are on needles, so I will have plenty of time to think!

Melanchollic said:
The standard nature of the elements remain consistant, whether or not one relates them to the humors and temperaments. But my source is Aristotle's On Generation and Corruption.

http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/a/aristotle/corruption/book2.html

Thank you. I am printing it up as soon as I finish lunch.

Melanchollic said:
Again, this is THE authority on the nature of the four elements. It was the standard for all medicine, alchemy, astrology and philosophy.
::missed quote of Bee::
I hate to point out the obvious, but modern science also agrees with Aristotle that Heat expands and separates (think evaporation or distillation here) and that Cold contracts and binds. Perhaps you are letting the popular usage of 'cold' in the English language (as in a 'cold' person, the 'cold' shoulder, 'cold' hearted) influence you here?

This is also the case in Chinese medicine. So if you've got muscle aches, the thing to do is *move* it, rather than ice it - because ice contracts and congeals, and causes stagnation in the muscle. Of course, right after an injury ice is important to deal with inflammation (heat!!!!)

Hooked on TdM

Melanchollic said:
Fire = Dryness + Heat

Air = Heat + Moisture

Water = Moisture + Cold

Earth = Cold + Dryness

Um just a question.. sorta. These are not to be taken as hard and fast rules right? Because often water is warm (nice hot springs, warm streams etc.) and the earth can be both warm and wet, all sorts of combinations there. Not to sure about air though..

HoT

Melanchollic

Hooked on TdM said:
Um just a question.. sorta. These are not to be taken as hard and fast rules right? Because often water is warm (nice hot springs, warm streams etc.) and the earth can be both warm and wet, all sorts of combinations there. Not to sure about air though..

HoT

You have to remember that when they are talking about Elemental Water, they are not talking about actual water. It is not even allegory. "Water" is merely a code word for something else. That is what throws most people off. Maybe we should call it "Philosophical Water".

So, when an astrologer or alchemists or Medieval physician spoke of the Moon as 'Watery", or someone having a 'Watery" Phlegmatic constitution, they weren't thinking of water at all. They were taking about a specific range of qualities or behaviors - cold + moist - contracting, lacking rigidity, etc..

SolSionnach

Melanchollic said:
You have to remember that when they are talking about Elemental Water, they are not talking about actual water. It is not even allegory. "Water" is merely a code word for something else. That is what throws most people off. Maybe we should call it "Philosophical Water".

So, when an astrologer or alchemists or Medieval physician spoke of the Moon as 'Watery", or someone having a 'Watery" Phlegmatic constitution, they weren't thinking of water at all. They were taking about a specific range of qualities or behaviors - cold + moist - contracting, lacking rigidity, etc..

So this is where we all get tripped up - I dunno about anyone else, but I'm thinking of flames, and wind, and waves, and dirt when I think of the elements. D'oh!

I'm off to do some more thinking...

Hooked on TdM

Melanchollic said:
You have to remember that when they are talking about Elemental Water, they are not talking about actual water. It is not even allegory. "Water" is merely a code word for something else. That is what throws most people off. Maybe we should call it "Philosophical Water".

So, when an astrologer or alchemists or Medieval physician spoke of the Moon as 'Watery", or someone having a 'Watery" Phlegmatic constitution, they weren't thinking of water at all. They were taking about a specific range of qualities or behaviors - cold + moist - contracting, lacking rigidity, etc..

Oh! D'oh! Thanks for explaining that M. I was taking it rather literally! Now that gives me much to ponder.

HoT

Melanchollic

Yeah, I took me ages to finally 'get it'. It's definitely worth the effort. IMO. When you see how it all fits together, logically, even poetically, it is like that movie the MATRIX, and you can see the programming behind everything. It really is a system, which at its core, is making logical assumptions about how the energy behind phenomenon operates. Really 'seeing' it is a powerful tool for the ol' toolbox for anyone working with predictive technique (like Tarot).

Bernice

The (not actual) Elements:

The Cold element: Actually Mel I was thinking of an iceberg. Same condensing and contracting as you mention. But because Coldness creates (so to speak..) an iceberg from the substance of the locality - water in this case - it seems like a 'separative' process/action. Do you see what I mean? So I think science is both right (atoms & molecules etc), and wrong = coldness causes withdrawl and a separate condensed identity (iceberg). We are looking at the same thing, but from different viewpoints

You are the iceberg. Surrounding bits have fused together and become you.
I'm the surroundings, part of me has withdrawn and become something else.

The words, Heat, Cold, etc in the english language. Yes, this does have a very strong bearing on extended meanings. However, for the purposes of this system - I'll go along with your scientific and greek descriptions. I like to know the parameters, and you've got 'em!

Bee

SolSionnach

Melanchollic said:
Yeah, I took me ages to finally 'get it'. It's definitely worth the effort. IMO. When you see how it all fits together, logically, even poetically, it is like that movie the MATRIX, and you can see the programming behind everything. It really is a system, which at its core, is making logical assumptions about how the energy behind phenomenon operates. Really 'seeing' it is a powerful tool for the ol' toolbox for anyone working with predictive technique (like Tarot).

I think I need to rent the Matrix. I've never seen it. :bugeyed:

Okay, so last night I slogged my way through about 4/5ths of the Aristotle link. I'm going to have to look at it again - it's not user-friendly - but I did get some stuff out of it. Next I looked at a list from up-thread... I can't remember exactly where, but here it is, from my notes:

Mel said:
Here's Paul Marteau's Number meanings (from pages 103-104) for the curious.
1. Represents the point of departure and as a synthesis, summarising the meanings of the 9 following numbers.

2.The symbol of passivity, of polarity, and of gestation. Being passive polarity, it is without effect, but as gestation it is the substance of all developments.

3. 2+1, introduces activity in the passivity of the 2, which gives direction to its gestation.

4. Produced by 2x2, contains a cristallisation and, as an intermediary between 3 and 5, a transition. Therefore it represents relative stability and, as a consequence, things that fall in to place and tend towards a consolidation of themselves - towards security.

5. A number of transition, of passage from one plane to another, because it is composed of 1+4, 4 being a complete number, to which is added a unit (1), that is, a beginning. The base of 4, on which it depends to create the next number, gives it a sense of multiplicity and diffusion by radiation.

6. Represents a harmonious balance, being formed of 3+3, that is, two tertiaries that oppose each other, and of 2x3, implying the simultaneity of these tertiaries, and by consequence, their balance. In its basic sense, it means a latent power, a potential, that is, the reserves from which we can draw.

7. 6+1, indicates, by the presence of the unit (1), strength, action that utilises the power contained within the 6. It puts it in motion, while maintaining its harmony, and therefore shows completion with success. It is a number of synthetic realisation.

8. 4+4 brings together the cross and the square, that is, stability in the material plane balanced with inner life of the divine plane. It is not an abstract balance, like the 6, but it marks an ending, because it does not need to be animated by other currents. It is the symbol of the infinite, being formed by two circles together, which, when traced in the same direction, grow one into the other indefinitely.

9. Represents the abstract turning towards the concrete. The first eight numbers showed matter animated by the divine; in the 9, which is 8+1, we oblige the 8, which is a perfect number, to take on another unit (1), that is a new action, and therefore to start a new cycle. This implies that strength penetrates anew into matter, similar to what happens when a virtually conceptualised universe becomes material, in order to experience its own evolution.

10. While 1 synthesised in all their principles the numbers it precedes, the 10 condenses them in itself, because it takes part in all of them through its zero, which links them in their potentials and orients them towards a new cycle through the 1 that accompanies the zero. It is, furthermore, the number of reason and of calm, because, while in the 9, the abstract met the material, in the 10 it is now balanced in that material, because 10=2x5.

I find myself quite drawn to this list - particularly when I add the elemental attributions from Mel's triangle pic: 1=fire 2=water 3=air 4=earth 5=air 6=water 7=fire 8=water 9=earth 10=fire. I love how those elemental attribs cycle -first (1-4) in a forward direction, then (4-7) in a backwards direction, then (7-10) in a forwards direction. Beautiful!

It definitely has a sense of the active/passive (odd/even) characteristics of the numbers

Mel said:
ODD...........................EVEN
indivisible........................divisible
singular.............................plural
right..................................left
male...............................female
active.............................passive
direct.............................indirect
fluctuating..........................stable

... and I'm satisfied with how the elements move and grow/change from one number to the next. I'm not completely up on the whole Hot/Cold/Dry/Moist thing yet, particularly in seeing how Hot/Dry acts in the character of 1 & 7, for instance, but I'm very willing to give it a go and see what happens. I think that's where I'm going next - to work on the synthesis of the elemental attribs of the numbers, and the Marteau definitions of the numbers in their sequences.

from wikipedia:

Paul Marteau pioneered the number-plus-suit-plus-design approach to interpreting the numbered minor arcana cards ['pip cards'] of the Tarot de Marseille. Prior to Marteau's book Le Tarot de Marseille (which was first published "circa" 1930s), cartomantic meanings (such as Etteilla's) were generally the only ones published for interpreting Marseille pip cards.

Is that book available in English? I'd love to have a look at it!!

I feel like I'm finally making some progress in synthesizing a system to use with the TdM - as I told Hooked in a PM the other day, I've been very much up in the air with it all. Now I have numerological and elemental attribs for the pips as above, I'm using FIRE=SWORDS, AIR=CUPS, WATER=COINS, EARTH=BATONS for the suits (sorry for the all caps - I cribbed that from another post so I wouldn't have to type it out - me lazy!...and I used to be freaked out by swords=fire, batons=air, versus the usual GD attribs!

)

I'm going to be working toward a more instinctive understanding of the Elements and Powers next, both relating them to Marteau's number system, Mel's elemental take on the numbers, and *trying* to apply them to the trumps. The first thing I'm going to do is pull out my Haindl and have a look at his elemental attribs for the trumps vs. Mels (found in the Tirage en Croix thread), and see if I can suss out the differences. They should be many, because I'm sure that Haindl wasn't using the classical elemental understanding, but rather the current New Age understanding.

I'm very happy with how this is going - thanks SO MUCH Mel (and Bee and Frelkins and Hooked on TdM) for all the great conversation. Lots and LOTS of eye opening stuff happening in this forum!

Marseilles Pips meanings?

Bernice

Melanchollic

SolSionnach

Hooked on TdM

Melanchollic

SolSionnach

Hooked on TdM

Melanchollic

Bernice

SolSionnach