Marseilles Pips meanings?

venicebard said:

No, Da'at was originally 4, not 3, and lost that status (in fallen man's psyche) when the lower seven Sefirot underwent the 'breaking of the vessels', which pushed 4 on to the next station, on the male side, and the rest each forward one as well.

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That's one interpretation certainly, and as I said in my earlier post "there are many ways". As many trees in the orchard as there are souls in PaRaDiSe, no requirement or expectation as far as I am aware that they are all clones of each other. I offer an example, not a definitive model, that works for me; take the process and nurture whatever works for yourself. Just be careful you don't end up with a picture of Dorian Grey instead of a tree

Kwaw

Hi Kwaw and Venicebard and others:

So, how about an example of how your philosophical models apply to the meaning(s) of a particular Pip card, in the service of enhancing this thread's practicality to Marseille Pips Meanings.

Paul said:

Hi Kwaw and Venicebard and others:

So, how about an example of how your philosophical models apply to the meaning(s) of a particular Pip card, in the service of enhancing this thread's practicality to Marseille Pips Meanings.

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Excellent suggestion (not that I'm a reader myself).

Let's take the question of Da'at (it being a bone of contention) by my interpretation (which I of course do not see as one of many but as the correct one, based on the stations-of-the-round interpretation of Sefirot implied in the ain to ani, 'nought' to 'I', interpretation early Kabbalah gave the Tree):

This would mean that the 4 of Batons refers to the direction straight out or ahead, which is towards other and therefore (as the Bahir clearly states) the realization of the divine attribute Lovingkindness.

In Swords, however, 4 is affected by the maelstrom (which actually occurs in Cups) and indicates the depth of evil (negative direction on moral axis 3-4), in that it is our departure -- via arc, dislodged from the 4th station (as point) by time's maelstrom -- from Lovingkindness that creates the abyss whose presence is registered by Da'at or knowledge (gnosis): it is the abyss of lack of mercy, so to speak. In other words, 3 and 4 of Swords link the undislodged (upper three) to the dislodged (lower seven), identifying the former as the depth of good and the latter as the depth of evil.

In Cups, the dislodged 4 is of course the procreating male type that replaced the cerebral or prototype male 2 after the initial Fall. In the human psyche, it indicates the male desire to procreate, leave issue, which of course can also be interpreted metaphorically, issue meaning, for example, works.

Finally, in Coins or rounds, it is the cycle Jupiter because he is the Big Daddy, the progenitor of all so to speak.

(I wish I had more time, but perhaps no-one else does.)

Alright. Venicebard, shall I ask, this: Let's say I had a querent who was asking about how his or her romantic relationship was proceeding-- as a very practical example that comes up often for people seeking readings-- and we drew one of the cards you explain below.
Would you be so kind as to provide an exoteric application in the context of this proposed question of the romantic relationship?

4 Batons ~
4 Coupes ~
4 D'Epees ~
4 Deniers ~

Thanks.

Oh No! More Philosophy.

I think an intelligent systematic approach to Tarot, particularly the pips is helpful, but, in my experience cabbala is not it. The Hermetic writings, Pythagorean and Platonic thought, alchemy, and classical astrology and astrological magic have a high degree of internal congruency which can be used together. Throw cabbala in and you start getting serious in-congruencies.

Anyway. I'll put my money where my mouth is and humble present for comparison and critique my approach to pip/court interpretation.

Basically it is a simple synthesis of neo-Platonism, alchemy, and astrology.

Alas, responsibilities beckon, so we must wait till sun down. (I have to stake a few vampires before they rise. )


Ayumi

Ayumi -- I await eagerly for the sun to rise (in my part of the world).

I agree with you, indeed.

Ayumi's Pip/Court Method Part One

Platonic philosopher Iamblichus (*1) explains the numbers one through ten like this,

1. Unity
2. Separation
3. Completion
4. Consolidation

5. Crisis
6. Reconciliation

7. Higher Unity
8. Higher Separation
9. Higher Completion
10. Higher Consolidation

or John Opsopaus' version of numbers one through four (*2),

1. Impulse
2. Purpose
3. Process
4. Completion

Combine and we get something like this,

1. Worldly Unity and Impulse
2. Worldly Separation and Purpose
3. Worldly Process to Completion
4. Worldly Completion to Consolidation
5. Crisis
6. Resolution
7. Celestial Unity and Impulse
8. Celestial Separation and Purpose
9. Celestial Process to Completion
10. Celestial Completion to Consolidation

In Practical terms:

1 and 7 are about beginnings, impulses, potentials, negatively, potentials unrealized.

2 and 8 are the 'target' of the goals of the one, impulses and potentials that have manifested before you.

3 and 9 are the bridge between the goal and the target, how you reach the goal, the process, sometimes the way to mend conflict between the 1/7 and the 2/8, negatively something that hinders you reaching your goal.

4 and 10 are the solidification and consolidation of the goal.


So we get a double cycle:

........6
1......7
2......8
3......9
4......10
5


I put forward the idea that there also exists a
polarity of opposites in the number sequence:


1........10
2........9
3........8
4........7
5........6

The polarity is strongest at 5/6, crisis vs.
reconciliation.

4/7 - End of lower 'worldly' cycle vs. beginning of higher 'celestial' cycle,
stability vs. unsettling impulse, stagnation vs.
rebirth.

3/8 - lower process/completion vs. higher separation/goal, the first
taste of victory vs. the first glimpse of the higher purpose.

2/9 - lower separation/purpose vs. the higher process/completion, the
unlimited potential of the dividing of the one vs. the
limiting nature of the final completion. (From 10 the
cycle is repeating itself (1 + 0 = 1, and so on.))

The 1/10 relationship is interesting as they represent
the beginning vs. the end, but, the ten is
actually the return to the unity of the one, the seeker becomes the sought, man reunites with God. In Alchemical terms the
illusionary duality of male (Sulfur) and female (Salt)
are wedded by Hermes (Mercury) in the process called
'coniunctio' creating the 'Philosophers stone' or the
Quintessentia; spiritual illumination.

More to come....

Ayumi


Sources:

1. Iamblichus. The Theology of Arithmetic. Trans. Robin Waterfield. Grand Rapids: Phanes, 1988.

2. Opsopaus, John. Guide to the Pythagorean Tarot. St. Paul, Minnesota: Llewellyn Publications, 2001.

Appendix 1: The Elements and Suits

As I've discussed in other threads, I use rather unconventional correspondences between the suits and the four elements. These are based on my background in classical (pre-18th century) astrology, and literature and writings of the period of Tarots creation and height of popularity (14th through 17th century). Basically this means viewing the elements as they would have been viewed during the relevant periods of Tarot history, especially using the elements as reflected in the Four Humours/Temperaments. I always try to go back before the occult/esoteric literature of the 18th century Masonic fraternities and secret societies like the Rosicrucians, the later Romantic era pondering of de Gebelin, de Mellet and Etteilla, and the 19th century writings of Levi and the rest. If there was any initial esoteric meaning to Tarot, it will be found in the mysticism of the Medieval and Renaissance periods. If there weren't such philosophies considered in the Tarot's structure and design, then such an approach is still superior I feel, as it has the virtue of being at least historically congruent.

In defense of some of his rather modernist approaches to Tarot interpretation, one of the critics of my approach once asked, "Should not historical research be guided by what is actual and real?" I say, "Absolututely not". The TRUTH is almost totally relative to the time and place of its creation. I advocate CONGRUENCY over TRUTH.

Anyway the suit correlations I use are:

SWORDS = FIRE
CUPS = AIR
COINS = WATER
BATONS = EARTH

As to the "Whys?", some of my reasons are presented here:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=72455

I present all this here just to clear up any questions that may arise as I continue my presentation of pip/court interpretations. Any set of suit/element correlations will work of course. I'll just be using examples with mine.

Ayumi

An interesting rendition you present of Nicomachus's Introduction to Arithmetic (admitedly brought down to us as in part as Iamblichus's Theology of Arithmetic), Ayumi.

For example, I would have thought that the relation between marriage and the combination of 2 & 3 (as both 5 and as 6) be considered important.

I need to look at the details again, but suspect I'll enjoy taking issue with you regarding some of the details as they aim to reflect the general theological views on arithmetics.

jmd said:

...I would have thought that the relation between marriage and the combination of 2 & 3 (as both 5 and as 6) be considered important.

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Yes. I agree. The dyad - 2 (female) and the triad - 3 (male) are wedded through the pentad - 5 (2 + 3 = 5).

I tend to view it like this: The 'crisis' of the pentad (5) is the triad (3) penetrating, and inseminating, the dyad (2) in the consumation of the union which is harmonized and reconciled through the hexad (6) which is for me, a symbolic pregnancy. This gives birth to a child, the heptad (7), the higher monad (1).

(Gee. I love to talk dirty. )

The Pythagoreans also called the triad "marriage" as it was the mean or harmonia between the extremes of the monad and the dyad.

A little off topic, but a similar idea seems to be expressed in the Trump sequence; The Empress - 3 (The alchemical White Queen - Salt) and The Emperor - 4 ( The Red King - Sulphur) stand before The Pope - 5 (Mercury) and are wedded as shown by The Lovers - 6 (conciunctio). This union creates the child, The Chariot - 7 (3 + 4 = 7), who is a new beginning, The Juggler - 1 reborn on a higher level.

Ayumi