Is this stuff necessary or was it all piled on by those kooky Golden Dawn fellers?

The Golden Dawn ushered in a new esoteric model of Tarot. I don't think of it as having been "piled on" the traditional Tarot. Aside from the pips having been illustrated to fit the GD's interpretation of the deconates, most authors of post-GD decks seem to have taken little or no interest in the historic origins of the cards. In a word, all that "stuff" is unnecessary if one reads intuitively (or merely by the LWB). If one wants to know why, for example, the two of cups is so illustrated, then the esoteric origins of the cards must be investigated.

A Kooky GD Feller

Carla said:

What about readers who know NO astrology, NO kabbalah, nothing about Thelema, who either learned to read from something like Sarah Bartlett's Tarot Bible, or just by pure intuition, who still manage to give insightful and useful readings? Are they inferior? Or are they actually reading in an older tradition?

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I'm familiar with astrology (an 'amateur' for about 6/7 years) but rarely use it when reading tarot cards. Numbers are really my thing, even more so than tarot.

The real question in my mind is does one want to read 'the cards' (and know what the creater deemed them to represent), or does one want to read for 'the person' sitting across the table from them?

Inferior to be guided by intuition (heart consciousness)? .... NO!

Is intuition an older tradition?
Intuition is something many people think they don't possess. At some level, I think everyone has it. And you can read anything (not just tarot cards) to receive answers (at least I do). It's hard though to always trust (or even understand) these messages unless one is a clairaudient or clairvoyant. (I am only, for now, claircognisant ... extremely so .... and 'sometimes, rarely' clairaudient and clairsentient). That therefore makes tarot for many (and myself) a useful tool, and so knowing astrology, kabala, thelema etc. must definitely help.

There is no one glove fits all ... and many (if not all) roads do lead to Rome.

I'm not yet a kooky GD 'fellow', but I do find myself intrigued by what the Thoth offers.

It is a shame that some (few) people's desire to glean further knowledge of things associated with tarot may prompt them to denigrate their earlier learnings, and, in doing so, inadvertently offend others... I don't really think that many students of Thoth suddenly become Tarot snobs, and feel in any way superior... Some may, it is true, but as someone else noted, there can be a tendency towards superiority in any field of study...

GD, Thoth or RWT, TdeM or other... does it really matter which school of thought or body of knowledge one chooses to pursue, just as long as one school, or many, speak their message to us clearly enough that our readings may be beneficial to others?

I enjoy the knowledge I am gaining of the Kabbalah, and the most wondrous Tree of Life, something which has intrigued me for many years. I haven't yet grasped the significance of many Astrological associations, or of many other things, but, bit by bit, as I read and re-read, more information seeps in...

Much of it I will never remember, because I don't have a high-performance memory... but that is ok, as I really do prefer to read intuitively... This new information just adds to whatever store is buried deep in my memory banks, and either will or won't make itself available when certain symbols arise in a reading, and just may add that extra level to my understanding.... and then again, it may not! Symbols simply prompt my intuition... I have found that, in any given moment, if my intuition is to prove useful, only the most pertinent aspects of the card will come forward into my focus anyway, so.......

I love the RWT... it was my first deck, and feels comfortable and familiar to me, much like an old friend. The Thoth is not so comforting, as, yes, Frieda's artwork is less aesthetically appealing to me, in truth... But it does intrigue me, and encourages me to delve more deeply in order to understand what those symbols actually refer to... RWT is an old friend. Thoth is a new one, that I'm still becoming better acquainted with. I believe there is room for many such friends in my life... I haven't shaken hands with TdeM yet... perhaps another day....

"Is this stuff necessary"??? I'm too new as a student of this deck to feel confident answering that question, except to say that, as someone who is prompted by intuition, I'm more comfortable throwing any limiting factors to the ether and allowing myself to simply sit and be with the card, and the querant, whilst opening myself up to what comes through for that person, in that moment. If all "this stuff" helps, good... If it hinders, not good.... So... necessary, probably not... helpful, probably

I've been carefully re-reading Paul Huson's 'Mystical Origins of the Tarot'. He seems to agree with my belief that occult meanings of tarot were attached to tarot in the 19th century (as opposed to their always having been there).

He says that the ideas of 18th and 19th century students of occult 'don't stand up to close scrutiny' (p. 19), that it was someone called Court de Gebelin (expanded upon by Comte de Mellet) who made a connection between the 22 court cards and the Hebrew alphabet. ('In actual fact,' Huson writes, 'were the trumps to be connected with an alphabet, one would think it far more likely to be the Latin alphabet, bearing in mind their 15th-century European origins.' p. 54).

The Golden Dawn connected the suit cards to the 36 astrological decans. Huson writes that marriage certainly adds dimension to Eteilla's card meanings, but, 'There's no evidence that I know of that the numbered suit cards ever had any connection with decans before Christian [Paul Christian, 'Historie de le magie' 1870] and the Golden Dawn gave them one. Perhaps they did. Another thing we just don't know' (p. 66).

The only reason I'm saying all this is because as a new student of tarot, it's easy to look around and think that one path is the only path, and the way things have always been. And it's easy to be persuaded that the Thoth deck (or any deck) is the 'ultimate' deck, the 'true tarot', and that a certain way of reading cards is the 'real' way.

It's just a relief to me personally to get assurances that there are other equally legitimate ways to read cards than to use GD correspondences, astrology, kabbalah, and so on. And that at least one expert on tarot (Huson in this case) seems to agree that it's highly likely that those Golden Dawn fellers did indeed 'pile this stuff on' to tarot. (No offense to any Golden Dawn fellers who may be reading. I know the reason GD decks have the illustrations is to illustrate their interpretation of the cards. What I wanted to know was, was that the interpretation of the card before? Answer is, quite often not.)

Whew! Now I'm off to puzzle over the differences between Eteilla meanings and Golden Dawn meanings, and have a look at Picatrix decan meanings and see where I think they do and do not match pip cards. The more I look at these things, the more inclined I am to work with 'unillustrated' pip decks. I think this has all been precipitated by my working with Celtic Tarot (Davis)--with no clues on the pips, and with very simple majors, I've had my mind freed to start to wonder about interpretations and where they came from, etc. I am going to continue working with this deck, for sure!

When you've finished all your readings and studyings Carla, will you write a book that's simple enough for the basic tarot reader (i.e. - me!) to understand?!

firefrost said:

When you've finished all your readings and studyings Carla, will you write a book that's simple enough for the basic tarot reader (i.e. - me!) to understand?!

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Ha! I would not presume! And if I wrote one detailing whatever personal system I eventually develop, that would again be one writer 'piling something on to tarot'.

I'll let Huson speak again: 'As I see it, cartomantic rules and regulations have been cobbled together from a variety of sources, and I hold to the school of thought that the secret of successful divination lies within the diviner. Actually, I believe anyone who wants to read the cards is not only free to, but must evolve a personal method for himself or herself. If you have the talent, it will make itself known to you soon enough' (p.xiv).

Yes!!

Yes indeed!

Zezina said:

princeofcups518 (who is he on Aeclectic?) gives a look at the enormous depth behind each Thoth Tarot card.

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princeofcups518 - amazing or what ?

So - maybe PM and ask him to join in ?

gregory said:

princeofcups518 - amazing or what ?

So - maybe PM and ask him to join in ?

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I found him on YouTube when trying to Google this question of Thoth vs RWS. I wonder if he's around here. I just left a message on his blog inviting him to come over and join in.

My post meant - he IS here, and under that very name..... so PM him - here !!!