Can Tarot really foretell the Future ?

Nikita_

I guess that what you are experiencing here is the thing called cognitive dissonance. You have a belief position that tarot cards are always right. And you have empirical evidence that even the most experienced readers have been repeatedly mislead by the cards. That produces an uneasy feeling of something being wrong. And it looks as if you want this uneasy feeling to go away without changing your view. But this is not going to happen, at least not by reading this thread. I’m just saying before I come up with more arguments.



The exiting thing about physics and philosophy is that relativity is only half of the story. Yes, special relativity contains strong evidence that past, present and future are all equally real. That means the future is already there and we live in a deterministic universe. Quantum physics gives strong evidence for the opposite though. There is always a large number of possible outcomes for the near future. Which one is going to happen will only be decided once the outcome has any influence on the rest of the world. Until then all the different possibilities all exist at the same time, so to speak. This describes a reality that is probabilistic in the very core of things. Conclusion: Even modern physics is entirely ambiguous about basic parameters of our understanding of reality.

It is possible though to merge both sides into a consistent world view, which is the concept of multiple universes mentioned by LRichard earlier. It implies that the entirety of possible future outcomes is real, an infinite number of universes containing every single state a universe can be in. So the entirety of the cosmos is deterministic. But from the viewpoint of a single state (our present universe) there is still no way of predicting in which of the possible future states we will end up. The reason is that we basically end up in each of the states, but each of the multiple future copies of your consciousness can only experience one future at a time. That makes our personal universe probabilistic. Weird stuff indeed, and hotly disputed. The point is that things are either probabilistic and uncertain from your perspective. Or this all doesn’t tell you anything at all about that (in case you don’t like multiple universes).



That’s basically the short version of my long rambling :D

Coming back to topic: do we really need an ultimate belief position? The practical experience of most of the people on ATF seems to be that reading tarot tends to be quite accurate (exciting thing for me, as I see it as a sort of “intuition booster” only), but it also tends to fail on precise questions about concrete future outcomes. The easiest thing to do would be to stop worrying about why it is what it is and just use it the way is shows to work best.

ETA: grammar

Yes, you are absolutely right. About everything. No, I mean it, yours might be the convincing explanation that I was looking for, maybe you just put it the right way...

" I guess that what you are experiencing here is the thing called cognitive dissonance. You have a belief position that tarot cards are always right. And you have empirical evidence that even the most experienced readers have been repeatedly mislead by the cards. That produces an uneasy feeling of something being wrong. And it looks as if you want this uneasy feeling to go away without changing your view. But this is not going to happen, at least not by reading this thread. I’m just saying before I come up with more arguments."

And yes, that is my problem. But if I am to continue in the world of tarot, I will have to sort it out.
Just let me bring this back to earth, and trivialize it in the worste possible way, like one of my querent put it : ( because I once ventured into a very similar explanation, without being too sure of it myself...) " Why, of all the possible universes, we invariably end up in the worste possible "state", as you would call it, or, to use your language again, we always experience the worste possible future our subconscious has to offer ?
Sorry for trivializing your excellent explanation, but really, I've accumulated some statistics on this over the years, from myself and the people I've read for or spoken with, and favourable predictions have a tendency to turn out wrong, never the other way around....
 

Nikita_

Hi, Nikita. You have received several responses which include various theories. Have you drawn a conclusion/accepted anyone's proposal/suggestion/theory/answer on 1) whether or not tarot cards can predict the future and 2) the reason seasoned tarot readers who normally are good with predictions seem to fall short at times?

I am interested in reading the conclusion you've drawn or the manner in which you've processed all of the information offered. That is if you don't mind my inquiry.

Yes, just posted a reply to tzeres on this....but I will have more to say...just having trouble keeping up with all this feedback, I wasn't expecting it....
 

Nikita_

Excuse me .... I was pointing out the subversive and near evil intent of the forces that seem to have 'possessed' PS due to his own confession of " This can be blamed on whatever forces I have managed to antagonize while winding my way on my spiritual path."

It was the content and the problem I was , frankly, shocked to read, that that dynamic is out there with readers and passed so blaze like here ... it isnt ridicule ... it is primarily CONCERN !

I mean , for goodness sake's .... :

" and then at the most opportune moment for maximum emotional devastation the rug will get pulled from underneath and the answer will be dramatically and destructively wrong "

:bugeyed:




Look ... people believe in something (that cards are always going to predict the future), which is not right. Then, when it is proved not right by even their own observation ... they get into a panic, frustration, confusion, aggression, despair, etc ... whatever ! Oh , whats happening why doesnt tarot work the way I thought it did ! The problem is with the person, not the cards or tarot itself ... it was a wrong assumption in the first place!

http://img.playground.ru/images/5/6/648px-KingTheoden.png

Sorry I am being so boring and repetitive, but I could say the same thing about others who just are not getting this. If it so annoying to anyone and people cant stand my input and opinions, then put me on ignore - simple.

otherwise, consider this: I throw a coin to decide things yes no ... it works well for a few days, I tell my friends about that ... the coin says - yes do that, or no dont do that and it works great! Then after a while I go to them and say :I dont know what has gone wrong ... the coins all of a sudden are giving me bad advice , why isnt it working anymore?

What would you say to them ?

The answer, as I keep saying, lies in the dynamics of probability, and if one doesnt want to know about that, then one is just stuck where they are.



or call it the mathematics of probability



AGREED !

But as to how many this is 'happening to' I await further feedback ... it is interesting that you say : " I've heard this story, exactly like you put it," people have told you exactly that ... dozens of times ??? (your words) and the way PS exactly put it was : " I have been warned by entities that I deal with that if I ever actively pursue tarot as a public service I will have a reoccurring problem with my predictions being good until somebody comes to count upon them and then at the most opportune moment for maximum emotional devastation the rug will get pulled from underneath and the answer will be dramatically and destructively wrong. This can be blamed on whatever forces I have managed to antagonize while winding my way on my spiritual path."

Other people are EXACTLY having this experience... all over the place ? ! ? ! ?



Yes, people ; dont rely on tarot to the extent that it will mess you up - we see people seeking help here all the time because of that, how some imagined process of Tarot has got into their heads and is messing them up and they ask here for help about that .

And I suppose, for some, they WILL never get to the bottom of this ... ever ...


I am quiet capable of explaining this 'crazy' process in a detailed psychological, logical, and magical way - there is no ' rather than ' . I have been explaining some of the processes behind this type of 'magic' ... not trying to refute it with logic. However to examine it and explain it fully (to some) again would be long, complex and OT. However I am sure there are also some reading here who know exactly what I mean.

I would never put you on an " ignore " list, ravenest....because despite all my degrees and Masters, I am fully aware of my ignorance and how much I have to learn from everyone....well, almost everyone....though I have been a lecturer for many years myself, and I must say, there is nothing worste, in my view, than those who are bad teachers and start from the assumption that others are too ignorant to even be worthy of a clear, reasonable explanation, because they lack the background to understand it and they probably wouldn't get it anyway....
And I believe that there is room for every theory, on this forum and elsewhere, on these issues-mathematics, philosophy, magic, science....placebo's is as good as yours, since no one can prove anything, even science, as you yourself said earlier....
Therefore, I will not only not ignore your posts, but give you accurate feedback for each one of them....as soon as I can....
More to come...
 

Nikita_

The examples are about predicting the future ... and not specific to tarot.

Its not science magic or crap. Its a psychological process using symbols put together in a randomly generated order. The symbols contain knowledge and information, that relate to each other in specific ways depending on their relationships. By accessing this we have a store of info which we can apply to things we need to work out or come to decisions about.



Your statements dont really hold: why is it assumed that if something 'is magic' why should we also believe 'it can see everything' ? You have to define and clear up what you think about magic and what it is IMO ... magic isnt about waving a wand and suddenly being able to 'see everything' ... I know it is in pop culture but ... sorry folks !

Science, I dont think it is, but can science demonstrate how and why everything works (string theory is 'science' ; where is the demonstration ? ... variant subtheories argue about the construct and scientists cant even predict where light will go in the slit experiment !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc (more about prediction ;) )

Thinking it is crap wont work ... as IMO Tarot has a function and validity. One just has to understand that function and validity and use it accordingly.

" The examples are about predicting the future ... and not specific to tarot."
I was referring to your comment in an earlier post, where, in reply to my mock weather report, you said " Sounds like a tarot reading...only, the Language is more subtle in tarot readings.."
I was a student of Jung, I know Jodorowsky's theories, I also know that, for many many years and in a lot of "pop" cultures, tarot and other tools have been used with the conviction that it was a divination instrument....and pop cultures have a lot to teach, in my view...I guess I use the term " magic " in a popular, inappropriate way...but, as Jung, Jodorowsky, and many others, philosophers and scientists and such, may certainly hold part of the truth, but not the whole Truth, I still think it is worth investigating this subject.....
You know, ravenest...don't ask me why, but you remind me of the rabbi in the joke who would run around the village shouting " I've got all the answers ! Who's got all the questions ?? "
 

frejasphere

What a fascinating thread you started Nikita :) - took me quite a while to go through all the posts, but it was well worth it ...

I have to say that I don't use the Tarot for predicting the future (I like surprises), so I may not be the right person to weigh in on whether or not the Tarot can, will, might, should... predict the future... However, with so many interesting thoughts, I just felt like adding my 2 cents as well... :)

To me, the Tarot is about making sense of what is happening in the 'here and now'; the cards show me what I need to (and am ready to) see: What is the underlying cause? How is it affecting me? What are my strengths, weaknesses, desires? It's a time for reflection and introspection, which can shed light, or contain advice on what to do about it all...

Free will and determination enable us to change or react on experiences, serendipitous moments, advice, AHA flashes or cosmic interference. At the same time, I think there are challenges in life that we NEED to overcome before we can move on and grow. Circumnavigating these challenges = repeating a similar situation or challenge until we 'get' it... Acquiring knowledge about heartache on the horizon, may not necessarily make us more able to deal with the situation, rather, it might instead have the opposite effect...

Going back to your fairytale reading Nikita - it may be that your friend needed to experience the ending of this relationship, exactly the way it happened. This is not about karma or fate or pre-destination per se... Heartache is never fun, and I can see why you would feel dismay at giving her the 'green light' only to watch the happy couple fall apart. However, if you step away from the idea of 'accurately predicting the future' and instead toy with the idea that in each of the 3 readings; the cards - in cahoots with her subconscious, allowed her to: 'see what she needed to see, at that particular time' - then you might be left with a different idea of the readings?

Just a thought :)

@trzes - great post, I like ideas that warp my brain and take my mind to the stars and beyond, where possibilities are endless :) I agree with you about the intuition booster; I like to see the cards as a fibre-optic-cable to my subconscious ;)

@Flames - ditto (as in loved your post) :)

@ravenest - if you hadn't made me laugh so much, going through this thread would have been quicker (I think ;) ) - that includes being introduced to Dr Quantum's observer theory ;)
 

Nikita_

What a fascinating thread you started Nikita :) - took me quite a while to go through all the posts, but it was well worth it ...

I have to say that I don't use the Tarot for predicting the future (I like surprises), so I may not be the right person to weigh in on whether or not the Tarot can, will, might, should... predict the future... However, with so many interesting thoughts, I just felt like adding my 2 cents as well... :)

To me, the Tarot is about making sense of what is happening in the 'here and now'; the cards show me what I need to (and am ready to) see: What is the underlying cause? How is it affecting me? What are my strengths, weaknesses, desires? It's a time for reflection and introspection, which can shed light, or contain advice on what to do about it all...

Free will and determination enable us to change or react on experiences, serendipitous moments, advice, AHA flashes or cosmic interference. At the same time, I think there are challenges in life that we NEED to overcome before we can move on and grow. Circumnavigating these challenges = repeating a similar situation or challenge until we 'get' it... Acquiring knowledge about heartache on the horizon, may not necessarily make us more able to deal with the situation, rather, it might instead have the opposite effect...

Going back to your fairytale reading Nikita - it may be that your friend needed to experience the ending of this relationship, exactly the way it happened. This is not about karma or fate or pre-destination per se... Heartache is never fun, and I can see why you would feel dismay at giving her the 'green light' only to watch the happy couple fall apart. However, if you step away from the idea of 'accurately predicting the future' and instead toy with the idea that in each of the 3 readings; the cards - in cahoots with her subconscious, allowed her to: 'see what she needed to see, at that particular time' - then you might be left with a different idea of the readings?

Just a thought :)

@trzes - great post, I like ideas that warp my brain and take my mind to the stars and beyond, where possibilities are endless :) I agree with you about the intuition booster; I like to see the cards as a fibre-optic-cable to my subconscious ;)

@Flames - ditto (as in loved your post) :)

@ravenest - if you hadn't made me laugh so much, going through this thread would have been quicker (I think ;) ) - that includes being introduced to Dr Quantum's observer theory ;)

Thanks, freja...god, to think that when I started it, I thought people would think it was a dumm, childish question and ignore it...
Making sense of the here and now, trying to understand what's going on around us, and asking for advice, are certainly all worthwile purposes for which tarot can be used, and my aim, when opening this thread, was precisely to try and understand if that is actually the ONLY purpose we should use it for, given that so many times, future predictions turn out to be wrong....I am not sure what you meant by saying that my friend was allowed to " see what she needed to see..."... what, she needed to be mislead and let down ? Yes, our lives are full of challanges, obstacles, that sometimes seem to be getting bigger and harder to overcome as we move on...are they there for a purpose ? Catholics have their own theory about it...personally, I am often tempted to think that not everything in life has a meaning and purpose; not everything has to make sense...but even so, why would karma, or fate, or a spiteful spirit, or whatever you want to call it, want to make things worse for us, by adding insult to injury, feeding false hope through tarot, for instance, making the bad surprise even more bitter..?
I think the conclusion, since someone asked me what I had learnt or gathered, or what conclusions I had come to after reading the replies on this thread, is quite simply, what you said...that tarot should not be used for trying to see the future, because the probabilities of getting it wrong are too high, and can be misleading, and dangerously so...sure, people should not come to rely on it so much, like someone said, stating the obvious, otherwise, sooner or later they will certainly have their universe shattered by a failure...but it is not so easy to find a happy medium as readings are not cold scientific experiments; we are human beings, and when we read, we deal with deep emotions, often fragile human beings, who find themselves at very sensitive times in their lives...and you cannot play with their feelings by saying that maybe something will happen but on the other hand it may not; that maybe X loves them maybe he does not....and then, justify a failure with the Quantum theory or multiple universes...that's alright here, in this forum, and it's certainly interesting and enriching, but in practical terms, the only thing it means, in my view, is that tarots only purpose should be the one you described, which is also one of the ways I've always used it to begin with...
As to why tarot cannot really foretell the future-at least not with the accuracy and reliability that my personal standards would require...- I've heard many interesting theories here, most of whichI was already familiar with, but I think we will never really find the answer....
 

EyeAmEye

my aim, when opening this thread, was precisely to try and understand if that is actually the ONLY purpose we should use it for


The "purpose" of just about any divination system is based squarely on prediction. If one chooses not to use it for that purpose, that is their choice and if it works for them, then that is what they should use it for.

I personally never understood why someone would use it for self-reflection. Self-analysis can be done without cards or any tool other than yourself and a small bit of objectivity. If you lack that objectivity, then I don't see how the cards would help anyway. Just my opinion though.
 

Michael Sternbach

Hi Nikita, Ravenest and all,

The way I see it, what we can read with the Tarot is not future events per se but the seeds for them that exist now on the etheric plane - etheric patterns that have a certain probability to manifest in the physical world at a certain time. The cards will generally reflect the ones which have the highest probability to come into physical existence as seen from the present. However, actions that we decide (not) to take can alter the probability for an event to occur. In fact, one of my favourite spreads is designed to directly show me what to expect if I take one course as opposed to another.

It's important to understand that not only physical actions but - most significantly - actions (decisions) directly on that formative mental plane shape the outcome. Here we are dealing with expectations, beliefs and the power of the mind to attract or avoid certain probabilities. That's why I no longer satisfy myself with merely reading the cards. I started using them - in conjunction with visualization and affirmation - for influencing the probabilities of things to come in desirable ways. The former is a passive application, the latter an active one. It has been called Tarot Magic by some. Keep in mind that in either case, the consciousness of the reader/"writer" is key.
 

Nikita_

The "purpose" of just about any divination system is based squarely on prediction. If one chooses not to use it for that purpose, that is their choice and if it works for them, then that is what they should use it for.

I personally never understood why someone would use it for self-reflection. Self-analysis can be done without cards or any tool other than yourself and a small bit of objectivity. If you lack that objectivity, then I don't see how the cards would help anyway. Just my opinion though.

I agree, like I said before, I've always thought tarot was above all a tool for divination....but like I said in my previous post, if it can't be relied on for accuracy, then maybe there's no point...I think a very valuable contribution tarot can offer is understanding others, those around us, I mean the significant people in our lives, what they think, how they feel, as it is apparently so good at mirroring present situations....even though I know there are people who believe we shouldn't even do that....which to me, is just crazy....
 

Nikita_

Hi Nikita, Ravenest and all,

The way I see it, what we can read with the Tarot is not future events per se but the seeds for them that exist now on the etheric plane - etheric patterns that have a certain probability to manifest in the physical world at a certain time. The cards will generally reflect the ones which have the highest probability to come into physical existence as seen from the present.
However, actions that we decide (not) to take can alter the probability for an event to occur. In fact, one of my favourite spreads is designed to directly show me what to expect if I take one course as opposed to another.

So, if you read for others, how do you deal with this problem ? Do you inform them that, as far as the future goes, we are only dealing with possibilities here ?
Second question : are you so sure that it's what we decide to do-or not do-that influences or changes the course of events ?