Changing Ascendant & Moon?

PentQueen

Okay so I'll admit I've only really studied Sun signs in my experience. Now that I'm getting into more complicated charts (which I still know very little about), I'm understanding that my Moon and Ascendant are suddenly different than what they were when I was born, when I calculate my solar return. Can anyone elaborate on/explain this?

And if this is the case, if I'm listening to an astrological forecast, do I listen to the Rising and Moon of my natal chart, or of my solar return chart?

Thanks in advance!
 

Minderwiz

Okay so I'll admit I've only really studied Sun signs in my experience. Now that I'm getting into more complicated charts (which I still know very little about), I'm understanding that my Moon and Ascendant are suddenly different than what they were when I was born, when I calculate my solar return. Can anyone elaborate on/explain this?

And if this is the case, if I'm listening to an astrological forecast, do I listen to the Rising and Moon of my natal chart, or of my solar return chart?

Thanks in advance!

Just seen your post as I was going to bed. Hopefully, our Solar Return expert, Dadsnook2000, will see it and reply to it but if by any chance he doesn't, I'll give you an explanation tomorrow, when I've time to write something longer.
 

dadsnook2000

A bit about Solar Returns

Our calendar year of 365 days is really 365.25 days, which means that the Earth has to travel, on average, about an extra quarter day (or 6 hours) to actually travel 360 degrees in its orbit. This means that the Earth has rotated somewhere around 90 degrees in that extra quarter day. Of course, we save up those quarter days for leap year when we group four quarters together to make a full day, adding an extra day to the month of February.

If you run a Solar Return for two successive years you will notice that the MC angle has shifted some 90 degrees (the exact number can vary a bit). This is a result of that extra quarter day of rotation. So, the MC shift forward about 3 signs. The Sun has to stay in it's natal sign and degree position, by definition of a Solar Return, so the Sun appears to move backward through the houses --- about 3 houses, depending upon the house system you use and any latitude distortion of the Ascendant and its effect upon the houses.

Because the Moon seemingly has no synchronization with the Earth-Sun orbital period, the Moon in a Solar Return can be anywhere in the zodiac. Likewise, the Ascendant can shift.

If your Solar Return is cast in the tropical zodiac, your Solar Return MC will return close to its natal position every 23 years (I believe). If you use precession correction for the tropical Solar Return or the sidereal zodiac, you will find the MC returning to its natal position every 39th year.

The same variability of angular locations of the MC and Asc. will occur also in Lunar Returns for similar reasons.

Dave
 

PentQueen

Thanks for clarifying Dave. And yes, it looks like my Ascendant moved forward from Leo into Scorpio. And apparently my Moon is now in Scorpio all of the sudden as well.

Anyway, I'm now wondering if I should be following Scorpio based horoscopes? I normally listen to my sun sign but I did try listening to a Leo one recently (to see if my rising had any impact) and I ended up turning it off halfway because it did not resonate at all. And...oddly, I mistakenly listened to a Scorpio horoscope recently and it did resonate with me...I thought that was strange, and maybe now it makes sense...hmm.
 

Minderwiz

Thanks for clarifying Dave. And yes, it looks like my Ascendant moved forward from Leo into Scorpio.

Anyway, I'm now wondering if I should be following Scorpio based horoscopes? I normally listen to my sun sign but I did try listening to a Leo one recently (to see if my rising had any impact) and I ended up turning it off halfway because it did not resonate at all. And...oddly, I mistakenly listened to a Scorpio horoscope recently and it did resonate with me...I thought that was strange, and maybe now it makes sense...hmm.

Absolutely not! The Solar Return (SR) is only a special case of transits (though 'only' is a bit of an understatement). Whilst it applies to the coming year, it does not in anyway supplant your natal chart and it offers nothing that is not already promised in your natal chart, though it does give an indication of timing.

As Dave often points out, quite rightly, a SR chart should not be read in the same way as a natal chart. If you actually did try changing your perceived sign you would quickly become very confused as it will change again the following year and then follow a predictable but still significantly different year on year cycle.

I have Leo rising and a Taurus MC. I've just done 25 Solar Returns of my own chart to illustrate this and the pattern over those years, starting in 2000, would be (Asc, Mc):

Cancer, Pisces: Virgo, Gemini: Scorpio, Virgo: Aquarius, Sagittarius
Cancer, Aquarius: Virgo, Taurus: Scorpio, Leo: Capricorn, Scorpio,
Gemini, Aquarius: Leo, Taurus: Libra, Leo: Capricorn, Scorpio
Gemini, Aquarius: Leo, Taurus: Libra, Cancer: Sagittarius, Libra
Taurus, Capricorn: Leo, Aries: Libra, Cancer: Sagittarius, Libra
Taurus, Capricorn: Leo, Aries,: Libra, Cancer: Sagittarius, Libra
Aries, Capricorn

As you should be able to make out, this cycle goes in groups of four years, with the Ascendant returning to its previous position in the fifth year.

However it's not that simple if you look, this cycle occurs twice, and then shifts to the previous sign. So, looking at the 'first; years of each cycle,, there are two Cancer cycles, followed by two Gemini cycles followed by two Taurus cycles, and then two Aries cycles. This will, as Dave points out, be affected by the latitude of the place,

In the second year of each cycle, I got four Leo Ascendants, but two of them had Taurus MCs and two had Aries MC's The general principle of precession holds as the sign shifted from Virgo to Leo, and then from Scorpio to Libra for the third year of the cycles and for the fourth year of the cycles, from Aquarius to Capricorn to Sagittarius.

I didn't give the degrees but for each cycle the Ascendant moves backwards in the sign by a few degrees. The tenth year of this sequence has my SR Ascendant and SR MC close to their original positions but remember I didn't start from birth, so this simply is a 'slice of life' examination,

I include it more to make the point that if I took up the idea in your question, I'd be Cancer one year, Virgo the next, Scorpio in the third year and Aquarius in the fourth. Then I'd shift back to being Cancer, but in the fourth year of that cycle I'd be Capricorn.

I'd be a very confused bunny by the end of twenty five years. :)

.... And apparently my Moon is now in Scorpio all of the sudden as well.

Well. as Dave points out, the Moon is not 'glued' to the solar year. In fact the synodic period of the Moon is 29.5 days between New Moons. That period gives rise to the solar month of 30 days and the old Egyptian calendar had 12, 30 day months in it. That gives 360 days, which is far short of a full year, and so they added on intercalary days to make it fit, a practice that is common in cultures that use both Sun and Moon for calendar purposes. The Moon of course doesn't 'knock off' and stand still for five days, waiting for the year to begin again. It carries on moving, so the Sun/Moon relationship is not the same for the same day of the month, each year, though again there is a cycle in operation, taking about 19 years to complete. Even so this is independent of your SR chart and is best applied to the lunation (New Moon or Full Moon) preceding your birth or the SR chart date.

In my case the pre-natal lunation was a New Moon at 20 degrees Libra. In 2001 the SR chart showed a 'pre-natal' (i.e. the lunation preceding my SR chart date) New Moon at 23 degrees Libra. In 2020 there will be a New Moon at 23 Libra preceding my SR for that year. Hellenistic and Medieval Astrologers made a lot of use of that 19 year cycle but it is not used so much these days.

incidentally those five extra days don't have to be all taken at one go. The modern calendar adds them on to make seven 31 day months (two of those 'extra' days allowing our February to be 28 days.

Final point (at least for the moment :) ) Don't take published horoscopes too seriously. The ignore everything in the chart apart from the Sun and that they shift to the Ascendant. Other things that are going on just don't feature except as house transits and even those are minimised because no transits of natal planets are considered.

Edited to add:

Now you know why I didn't write this post at midnight LOL :D
 

PentQueen

Wow thanks for the lengthy post! I honestly wasn't aware that astrology was quite this complicated, it's like math class all over again, lol! Thank you anyway, I'm doing my best to take it all in despite a mushy brain!
 

Minderwiz

Wow thanks for the lengthy post! I honestly wasn't aware that astrology was quite this complicated, it's like math class all over again, lol! Thank you anyway, I'm doing my best to take it all in despite a mushy brain!

You dont need to worry about the maths too much, simply remember there are reasons why these things happen and there is a repeated cycle involved. If you really get into it at a later stage, then you can delve back in :):)
 

dadsnook2000

Also

Also remember that since the MC shifts about 90 degrees forward every year from one year to the next, in a Solar Return, that this is a signature of a 'cycle.' In actuality, that cycle can be traced from one solar return to the next if you progress or advance the MC by about 1.25 degrees per day. This advances the MC 360 degrees plus the extra 90 degrees (450 total).

The point to this is two fold. As Minderwiz noted, the Solar Return day is just a special transit day. Yes, the Sun coming back to the natal Sun's position does enforce the natal imprint of our birth upon us. But, the other planets on our 'birth' day (on any future date) will be in different positions. So, the birth day is important, but it does not override your actual birth day.

Second, if you advance your chart day by day, you have 365 daily charts. You can advance the MC by the 1.25 degrees per day as noted above, or you can advance the Solar Return by a 'diurnal' method. A diurnal advance is done by keeping the solar return charts time, and just changing the date. This will advance the angles from the Solar Returns angles, and will show the transits for that chosen day. There is a great deal to learn about Solar Returns. Don't rush into your astrology. Take it a step at a time, enjoy it, and learn it well. You will be well rewarded. Dave