Marseille's Learning Styles: Discussion For Beginners

Umbrae said:

Learn not by suits….

Lee?

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LOL! I hate to disappoint my friend Umbrae, but we are not in disagreement. Either he has misread my post or, more likely, I was unclear.

I'm not recommending writing down specific meanings for each card, although you can certainly do that if you want to, and if you want to do it by suits or by numbers, it matters not to me.

I was merely suggesting writing down a meaning for each suit, and a meaning for each number, and don't write down the combination of the suit and the number; rather, do the combination in your head while you're looking at the card.

By all means, lay out the 2's, the 3's, etc. In fact, if you'd like to determine the meanings of the numbers from the corresponding majors, then lay out the Bateleur with the Aces, the Popess with the 2's, etc.

Also, by the way, just because most people define the suits with the elements, it doesn't mean you have to. You could define the swords as conflict, the cups as sustenance, etc. You could define the upright suits one way, and then define them entirely differently for the reversed suits, so then you would end up with eight suits, in effect (I stole this idea from John Gilbert).

And another by-the-way, for the majors, I think the best thing is to look at the card itself and pay attention to what the people are doing. You can get a lot of mileage out of assigning meanings to certain factors such as (and these are just examples, you can define them as you like):

Is the person looking right (conscious awareness) or left (intuitive awareness)?

Are they standing (active) or sitting (passive)?

Are they clothed (employing a persona) or nude (revealing their truth)?

None of these suggestions are original with me, it's all stuff others have said in the past.

-- Lee

Don't forget that you can also relate the minors (1-10) to the Majors. Now, you're going to say: but that leaves out the Majors from 11-22.

No, because 11 hints at 2. And 12 hints at 3. And 13 hints at 4, etc. etc.

So one can read the cards that way at many levels.

Like if I have a three of Swords - I can bring in my knowledge of the Empress and relate it to what I understand to be the Sword element (for instance the mental processes), and then underlying that I can use the Hanged Man which will give me a hint as to where any obstacles may lie in order to get this energy moving.

(In my opinion, using RW meanings to understand non-scenic pips is useless. Correlations may appear, but this is probably more of a coincidence than anything else. Waite's mind worked in his own particular way and his cards so often only show one side of the coin that they are biased to start with.)

Also don't forget that in the Marseille tradition the Fool has no number, BUT he is numerologically number 22 (just in case you are looking for a 22 for some reason).

William Blake Tarot system

Here's the system used in the William Blake Tarot. I think it is a modern system, and pretty standard, but thought I'd start listing some the systems that I have run across.

Aces:
Are the seeds or roots that we must nurture, or gifts and opportunities that we must grasp if they are to develop. One is the number of creation and the source of all numbers; it signifies the male attributes that assert or initiate things.
Keywords: Concentration, will, creativity, originality, independence.
Negative: Inability to grasp opportunity.

Twos:
Two is the number of duality and signifies the female attributes. The twos deal with making choices, and with nurturing, change and intuition.
Keywords: Receptivity, sensitivity, adaptability and peacefulness.
Negative: Unbalance, unable to change

Threes:
Three is the number of growth and synthesis. The threes combine the impetus of one with the receptivity or two to produce beauty and fruitfulness.
Keywords: Optimism, kindness, hedonism, extroversion, artistic talent, fecundity, lovingness.
Negative: Arrogance, triviality, frivolousness, self-indulgence.

Fours:
Four is the number of consolidation, of stabilizing and actualizing. The fours mark initial success and establish boundaries.
Keywords: Dependability, dignity, discipline, practicality, conservativeness, endurance.
Negative: Repression, limitation, discontent, selfhood, stagnation.

Fives:
Five is the number of upset or conflict, a reaction against the fours. The fives cause change through loss, strife and purgation.
Keywords: Teaching, learning, problem-solving, combativeness, versatility, resourcefulness.
Negative: Dogma, anger, depression, disruption, irresponsibility.

Sixes:
Six is the number of sharing and reciprocity. The sixes are concerned with the right use of energy and the benefits of reconciliation.
Keywords: Protectiveness, unselfishness, healing, symmetry, service, responsibility, discrimination.
Negative: Vanity, condescension, stubbornness.

Sevens:
Seven is the number or initiation and instability. The sevens are tests of what you have learned.
Keywords: Poise, stoicism, research, introspection, faith, movement, victory.
Negative: Delusion, deceit, manipulation, avoidance.

Eights:
Eight is the number of reevaluation and assertive expansion. The eights deal with balancing power and making decisions.
Keywords: Leadership, authority, thoroughness, vision.
Negative: Isolation, denial, rejection.

Nines:
Nine is the number of attainment and completion. The nines are plateaus achieved through effort.
Keywords: Understanding, compassion, genius, humanitarianism, purification, solitude.
Negative: Isolation, denial, rejection.

Tens:
Ten is the number of culmination and transcendence. The tens represent the essences of their ruling elements and are overviews of their suits.
Keywords: End of cycle, result of attainment, karma.
Negative: Overflow, fatalism, corruption.

Because the William Blake Tarot is oriented towards artists here is how the suits are broken out:

Painting = Pentacles = Body/matter = Body
Science = Swords = Mind/thought = Head
Music = Cups = Emotions/love = Heart
Poetry = Wands = Imagination/spirit = Genitals

robert

Lee said:

Is the person looking right (conscious awareness) or left (intuitive awareness)?

Are they standing (active) or sitting (passive)?

Are they clothed (employing a persona) or nude (revealing their truth)?

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I do this with all of my decks.

As an aside, and related to the reading process, I like to look at actual physical location of a specific card in relation to another card. For instance, does the figure in a specific card (say the Knight of Cups) face in the direction of another card (say the Ace of Cups), and what could garner from this. Does he face away from that card? What can this tell us? Etc. Is a figure in one card (say the 5 of Cups) placed underneath the figure in another card (say the Empress)... and could this imply submission? Ofcourse, there are countless different ways that one could interpret these differences in location and the relevance that these might have for the reading.

I am particularly looking forward to trying out this technique with my TdM... whether the images in the pip cards (say the 10 of Wands) point at the image in another card (say the Fool). Do they point away from that image, and what can this tell us about the card? Ofcourse, I am just stating these questions as an example of the various issues which may arise in a reading.

I just noticed that I posted the same time as Robert, so I should add:-

Thanks for posting that information!!!! I think that this thread will be quite a resource!

An amazing website!

LOTS of imformation on numerology and history.

Fascinating!

try these three sections just for a taste, then explore!


http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/math5.geometry/unit3/unit3.html

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/math5.geometry/unit8/unit8.html

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/math5.geometry/unit9/unit9.html

robert

Very interesting links. I always think that I can never have enough information to read up on.

Cheers.

The site that robertmealing points out is fascinating. I have had it bookmarked for a long time now, and I often go back there and stroll.

As it mentions, the people in the Middle Ages were absolutely "nuts" about numbers. And that is why it is so important to understand numbers when it comes to the Tarot of Marseille. They obviously used Pythagorean "numerology" and that is why I am convinced that if one is to understand the Tarot of Marseille, one has to become familiar with it.

In fact, to understand the Tarot of Marseille, one has to plunge into the Middle Ages as well. Even if to start with, one just reads general things on history and how they lived and moved and breathed.

Edited to add: There is even Tarot mentioned on that web-site.

"All these sources, along with the geometry from Islam, impregnated the Middle Ages with number symbolism, and number lore flourished wherever cosmic secrets were valued, as in astrology, Medicine, alchemy, magic, and the Tarot."

See, so much occult knowledge to discover in our little pack of cards!!! But I suppose that's pretty obvious. What is not obvious is to find it. That is why it's occult!

Lee said:

Is the person looking right (conscious awareness) or left (intuitive awareness)?

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--This has been bugging me for awhile. I first noticed it on Kris Hadar's website (I think.)

Would a person looking 'right' be looking to his/her own right (stage right) or to my right (stage left)? --I'm totally unclear on this. & that lack of clarity undermines the principle itself, great as it sounds . . .

punchinella said:

[BWould a person looking 'right' be looking to his/her own right (stage right) or to my right (stage left)? --I'm totally unclear on this. & that lack of clarity undermines the principle itself, great as it sounds . . . [/B]

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Good question! I think the thing to keep in mind is, we're assigning meaning to things which we have no idea what was in the minds of the creator(s). It's impossible to know whether they even thought in terms of left=inner, right=outer, and whether they had that in mind when they drew the pictures.

It's important to distinguish what the creator(s) had in mind on the one hand from what is useful for us to use in divination on the other. In my opinion, the former is an interesting historical issue, but frankly I'm a down-to-earth kind of guy and I'm more interested in the process of reading the cards. Given that, it doesn't really matter to me (I mean, it matters to me from an intellectual curiosity standpoint but not from a practical reading standpoint) what the creator(s) had in mind.

This is a long-winded way of saying that since we're assigning individualized meanings to the images based on what works best for us in readings, then we can decide for ourselves what we want the directions (i.e. left or right, top or bottom) to mean, what we want the colors to mean, or what we want any part of the image to mean. So I think it's perfectly okay to decide for yourself whose left and whose right you want to consider.

I realize that this would be blasphemy to those who feel that the laws of the universe are encoded in the cards. But that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

-- Lee