firemaiden
Enfin!! réponse de la déesse. Merci.
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Marseilles Decks: Ace of Cups
Diana
firemaiden said:Enfin!! réponse de la déesse. Merci.
Moonbow*: translated, that means "at last, a reply from the Goddess".
A reply from the Goddess? Where? Where? I want to read it too. *Diana pouts because firemaiden gets secret messages from beyond and doesn't share them with us.*
firemaiden
I got a message from the Goddess, but I don't know how to translate it... it is in Goddess language.
I think it said, "yes the Ace of cups is actually the city of Jerusalem, and Firemaiden is a genius for bringing it up"
I think it said, "yes the Ace of cups is actually the city of Jerusalem, and Firemaiden is a genius for bringing it up"
Ross G Caldwell
I am working on a paper which explores the idea that, historically speaking, the Ace of Cups represented either or both the Holy Graal and the Fountain of Eden, such as the hymned *fontaine* in the garden of the Visconti castle in Pavia. It is a towering, mythical card.
Ross
Ross
Diana
Ross: can you tell us more about this Fountain of Eden, please? Or do you prefer to wait till your paper is ready. I'm not sure I know know what the Fountain of Eden is. Is it the river mentioned in the Old Testament in Genesis? And what is a "hymned" fountain?
Ross G Caldwell
Hi Diana,
It's a loose collection of images and quotes at this point, waiting for inspiration to fill it with form. The Fountain of Eden is the source of the four rivers; in Medieval art, the Garden of Paradise is portrayed like a walled garden, perfectly kept; sometimes there is a fountain at the centre. On the painted cards like Visconti Sforza, the fountain has four streams, and looks the same as those in the Paradise pictures.
A fountain, slightly different, also occurs in the Victoria and Albert Museum cards, the Guildhall, the Goldschmidt and Rosenthal packs (all illustrated in Kaplan).
In the Park (paradiso in Greek) or Garden of the Visconti Castle of Pavia was "the mythical *fontayne* which served as a bath for the ladies, the erudite poetesses and female musicians of the court (like Gian Galeazzo's own daughter, the harpist Valentina, for whom Jacob Senleches may have written his *Harpe de Melodie*), and which had virtually become a symbol of the court of Pavia." (Pedro Memelsdorff in the notes to the recording "En Attendant: l'Art de la citation dans l'Italie des Visconti 1380-1410" 1996).
Thus, I have drawn a connection between the flourishing centre of culture that was Pavia at the turn of the century, symbolized by the Fountain, and the Visconti-Sforza cards.
Then I ask, what might the fountain signify? The one, the fountain of paradise (above), the other, the Holy Graal of the Arthurian romances. Gian Galeazzo seemed to have consciously fashioned a vision of "Camelot" at Pavia, as he was intent on restoring a native Kingship to Italy. The Graal romances were the most popular reading at this time. So we find on the Cary-Yale a "Graal" cup, not a fountain, containing the Visconti emblem; showing that the blood in the Chalice was Visconti - the meaning is clear; they are the Graal family. The plan was enormous - together Gian Galeazzo and his uncle Bernabo married into and had their offspring marry into every royal family in Europe. The symbol of the Serpent swallowing the Man was quite apt.
Thus, the two symbols, the Graal and the Fountain, united by the idea of the Garden of Paradise/Pavia/Camelot, are interwoven with the history of this family and the cards they made.
By "hymned" I meant to refer to Ciconia's song "Sus un' fontayne" which invokes the image of a dalliance by a fountain; as well as the images of fountains which the musicians of the court frequently used in their love-songs.
Ross
Diana said:Ross: can you tell us more about this Fountain of Eden, please? Or do you prefer to wait till your paper is ready. I'm not sure I know know what the Fountain of Eden is. Is it the river mentioned in the Old Testament in Genesis? And what is a "hymned" fountain?
It's a loose collection of images and quotes at this point, waiting for inspiration to fill it with form. The Fountain of Eden is the source of the four rivers; in Medieval art, the Garden of Paradise is portrayed like a walled garden, perfectly kept; sometimes there is a fountain at the centre. On the painted cards like Visconti Sforza, the fountain has four streams, and looks the same as those in the Paradise pictures.
A fountain, slightly different, also occurs in the Victoria and Albert Museum cards, the Guildhall, the Goldschmidt and Rosenthal packs (all illustrated in Kaplan).
In the Park (paradiso in Greek) or Garden of the Visconti Castle of Pavia was "the mythical *fontayne* which served as a bath for the ladies, the erudite poetesses and female musicians of the court (like Gian Galeazzo's own daughter, the harpist Valentina, for whom Jacob Senleches may have written his *Harpe de Melodie*), and which had virtually become a symbol of the court of Pavia." (Pedro Memelsdorff in the notes to the recording "En Attendant: l'Art de la citation dans l'Italie des Visconti 1380-1410" 1996).
Thus, I have drawn a connection between the flourishing centre of culture that was Pavia at the turn of the century, symbolized by the Fountain, and the Visconti-Sforza cards.
Then I ask, what might the fountain signify? The one, the fountain of paradise (above), the other, the Holy Graal of the Arthurian romances. Gian Galeazzo seemed to have consciously fashioned a vision of "Camelot" at Pavia, as he was intent on restoring a native Kingship to Italy. The Graal romances were the most popular reading at this time. So we find on the Cary-Yale a "Graal" cup, not a fountain, containing the Visconti emblem; showing that the blood in the Chalice was Visconti - the meaning is clear; they are the Graal family. The plan was enormous - together Gian Galeazzo and his uncle Bernabo married into and had their offspring marry into every royal family in Europe. The symbol of the Serpent swallowing the Man was quite apt.
Thus, the two symbols, the Graal and the Fountain, united by the idea of the Garden of Paradise/Pavia/Camelot, are interwoven with the history of this family and the cards they made.
By "hymned" I meant to refer to Ciconia's song "Sus un' fontayne" which invokes the image of a dalliance by a fountain; as well as the images of fountains which the musicians of the court frequently used in their love-songs.
Ross
jmd
Interestingly, the Fountain of eternal life, enclosed within the walled Garden of Eden, is an image I have sometimes used to depict Tifaret... especially versions which include anthropomorphisations of the seven planets - with King and Queen at the fountain.
With these, I at times compare the King and Queen (Sun and Moon) with the Emperor and Empress...
A wonderful rendition - used in Michelspacher's Cabalah - is part of a wonderful set of four Alchemical images. The fourth, titled End - Multiplication, is undoubtedly my favourite...
With these, I at times compare the King and Queen (Sun and Moon) with the Emperor and Empress...
A wonderful rendition - used in Michelspacher's Cabalah - is part of a wonderful set of four Alchemical images. The fourth, titled End - Multiplication, is undoubtedly my favourite...
Diana
Aha! Here is a chap who claims to have found the original placement of the Garden of Eden. Sounds like a lovely spot:
http://www.biblicalheritage.org/Archaeology/eden.htm
http://www.biblicalheritage.org/Archaeology/eden.htm
punchinella
mandorla, vesica piscis, etc. etc. etc.
I always thought a mandorla was the thing (pointed at top & bottom, otherwise shaped like a symmetrical egg) that Byzantine-styled Christ-figures tend to sit inside (frontally positioned, fingers raised in blessing . . . ) (Would that be a Vesica Piscis I wonder???)
I would also, along with Moonbow, like to know just what this small bird at the base of the cup is/means. If you don't know Diana, can we ask Kris Hadar--please? --Pretty please???
At the risk of serious embarassment--might I ask--what's a Vesica Piscis symbol (something to do with fish, I presume?)firemaiden said:What is a mandorla? A search in google reveals it is 1) the italian word for almond 2) another name for the Vesica Piscis symbol
I always thought a mandorla was the thing (pointed at top & bottom, otherwise shaped like a symmetrical egg) that Byzantine-styled Christ-figures tend to sit inside (frontally positioned, fingers raised in blessing . . . ) (Would that be a Vesica Piscis I wonder???)
I would also, along with Moonbow, like to know just what this small bird at the base of the cup is/means. If you don't know Diana, can we ask Kris Hadar--please? --Pretty please???
punchinella
--Oh, and if mandorla/Vesica Piscis does turn out to be this same Byzantine Christ-holder-shape (which is not actually the same shape as at the 'entrance' to the temple/castle/tavern here . . . too pointy) isn't it interesting that it also appears as the basic suit of swords/espees shape?
P.
P.
