What makes a Marseilles?

Sophie

ihcoyc said:
It's more like a ballad that changes slightly each time it is heard, remembered, and retold.

What a beautiful image, ihcoyc. We just have to look at the evocative figures and the graceful illustrations of the pips, and the seemingly simple woodcuts, to see that we are in the presence of great folk art - like fairy tales and, as you wrote, ballads. But there will always be some - often great artists! - to try and fix down folk art. Perrault and the Grimms did it with fairy tales, Smetana and Vaughan Williams with ballads. Possibly the discussion over what constitutes a Marseille tarot comes down to this: is the Marseille fixed, like a Perrault fairy tale (beautiful as these are), or is it fluid and evolving like a continuous folk tale?

And consider, too, that some of the same fairy tales were set down differently by Perrault in the 17th century, and the Grimms, two centuries later...

...and also, that elements of folk art often tend to become fixed at times when they are in danger of disappearing, or being transformed and supplanted altogether by evolving forms of the art. It is entirely possible that the move to fix a canon of Tarot de Marseille comes from this concern.

BTW, does anyone know if there have been studies made of the Tarot by folkorists?
 

Diana

Helvetica said:
Possibly the discussion over what constitutes a Marseille tarot comes down to this: is the Marseille fixed, like a Perrault fairy tale (beautiful as these are), or is it fluid and evolving like a continuous folk tale?

Perrault's fairy-tales are (unfortunately in my opinion) not fixed. For instance, I'm not sure Perrault would be very amused to hear his slipper made of vair, was turned into a slipper made of glass. (Cinderella). Surely the story lost a significant part of its meaning by changing the symbolism so radically? It's such a shame...

(Poor Perrault.)
 

kenji

About "1804 Swiss Marseilles deck" by Meneghello

This deck was originally made for Jacque(s) Rochias,
a cardmaker of Neuchatel, Switzerland.
The initials "JR" on LE CHARIOR (VII) & the 2 of cups
stand for his name.
(The inscriptions on the 2 of coins are almost vanished,
but probably used to read "FAIT PAR JACQUE ROCHIAS
A NEUCHATEL".)

Afterwards the woodblocks of this deck were taken over
by another cardmaker, who published the orginal of Meneghello
reproduction in "1804".
It may have been Gassmann of Geneva, who was later taken
over by Muller around 1865-1870.

1804 Swiss deck, Gassmann tarot and "Tarot Classic" by Muller
are all alike in design.

Now, here are some pictures of 1804 deck.
http://www.themysticeye.com/pics/marsig.htm
See the 4 of Coins.
The logotype in the centre stands for "Jacques Rochias" -- JR.

And Gassmann: The 4 of coins has the same logotype.
http://www.gambler.ru/sukhty/decks03/d01995/d01995.htm

And old "Tarot Classic" by Muller also does.
http://www.gambler.ru/sukhty/decks04/d03334/d03334.htm
 

Sophie

Diana said:
Perrault's fairy-tales are (unfortunately in my opinion) not fixed. For instance, I'm not sure Perrault would be very amused to hear his slipper made of vair, was turned into a slipper made of glass. (Cinderella). Surely the story lost a significant part of its meaning by changing the symbolism so radically? It's such a shame...

(Poor Perrault.)

And took on a new meaning, just as poetic. Why a shame? Thinking laterally, verre and vair are both rather strange materials to make slippers out of... And besides I once read in this forum that the makers of Tarot were rather fond of word associations based on sonority (l'Amande, le Monde).

Perrault tried to dam a river.

Nowadays, of course, Walt Disney has succeeded :(
 

Diana

Helvetica said:
And took on a new meaning, just as poetic. Why a shame? Thinking laterally, verre and vair are both rather strange materials to make slippers out of... And besides I once read in this forum that the makers of Tarot were rather fond of word associations based on sonority (l'Amande, le Monde).

Helvetica: Do you really think Perrault made a slipper out of vair because he wanted a POETIC meaning????
 

Sophie

Diana said:
Helvetica: Do you really think Perrault made a slipper out of vair because he wanted a POETIC meaning????

He didn't make it. He plucked it from a folktale which had as many different variants as the Loire has meanders. And as a poet, yes, I think poetry would have played some kind of role. He was a writer, after all, not a folklorist. I also think that the sonority - the association verre/vair - probably occurred to him. Unfortunately, I don't know what kind of folk association the animal vair had int eh 17th Century, so I must stop here before I go even more off-topic!

(you didn't comment on the sonority bit - do I take it it's of no interest to you in fairy tales or tarot - or that the word poetic hopped out of the screen at you and wiped all else out ;) ?)
 

kenji

And more

I think these decks (Rochias, Gassmann, etc.) should be all categorized
into "Tarot de Marseille", but indeed they have some exceptional cards.

The designs of XV "LE DIABLE" and the 4 Aces are all those of
"Tarot de Besancon".

In XVIIII "LE SOLEIL", the sun is "haired and flowered" --
This feature is typical of some Swiss tarots.

The pip cards are generally more decorative than ordinary TdM;
especially the BASTON cards.

Above all, the most unusual card is XII "LE PENDU".
This queer design is obviously derived from Catelin Geofroy, 1557!!
http://www.poker168.com/bwg/bwg_tl6.htm
 

Rusty Neon

kenji said:
I think these decks should be all categorized into "Tarot de Marseille",
but indeed they have some exceptional cards.

I agree that the Tarot de Marseille category as enunciated by the 20th century tarot-taxonomers should be expanded to cover those traditional decks that have some variant cards.

Above all, the most unusual card is XII "LE PENDU".
This queer design is obviously derived from Catelin Geofroy, 1557!!
http://www.poker168.com/bwg/bwg_tl6.htm

Indeed, the variant cards in the antique tarots that fail to make it into a restricted 'Marseille' canon go some ways back into history. They are manifestations of cross-currents (rather than aberrations) in the tradition.
 

Diana

Helvetica said:
(you didn't comment on the sonority bit - do I take it it's of no interest to you in fairy tales or tarot - or that the word poetic hopped out of the screen at you and wiped all else out ;) ?)

Oh Helvetica! :) The language of the birds is an integral part of the Tarot - because people SPOKE that language all the time!!!! They could not have divorced themselves from their own language. :)

As to Perrault, even his name was one chosen by him (so it is said) for its sonority. (It is unlikely that it was was his real name, just as it is as unlikely that Payen and Conver were the real names of those conceivers of the two Tarots that have their name. Both these names "Payen" and "Conver" speak the language of the birds too.)

Le Père Haut. And the vair... well, the vair was used in heraldry even in the Middle Ages. I must look up again what it symbolised. Perrault - Le Père Haut - was more than a just a writer. He was probably an initiate himself.
 

Lee

Thanks Kenji, for your (as always) knowledgeable input, and also for that link. It's a pleasure to see the Geofroy cards in color.

-- Lee