Camoin Marseilles -- the "true" Tarot, or just squinting at squiggly lines?

ihcoyc

jmd said:
For example, I am pretty certain that the peculiar spelling of the very name ihcoyc has chosen is because of its gnostic Greek numerological value of 888, and hence the 'hidden' Sun - or is it just a coincidence, which, had he the option, would have been spelled in its more familiar form (ibid. for XPICTOC).
There's a history behind that. Years ago, in 1984 or thereabouts, I logged onto a local dialup BBS that ran on a C=64. The homebrewed software it ran on displayed everything in ALL CAPS. Thinking of a handle to use on this BBS, I immediately chose IHCOYC XPICTOC, wondering if anyone would "get" my pedantic joke. I've been using that ever since. I'm aware of the numerological value behind the name, now, and it does give me something to try to live up to online.

I understand that Camion has some theories about the spellings of various names on the trumps in his deck, which I don't have documentation for --- not having that deck yet --- and can't really comment on. If these are significant, though, the old Paris Tarot has many more. Temperance is peculiarly ATREMPANCE; I have no idea where that spelling came from. The Fool is oddly LE FOVIS, unusual both for the spelling, and for the standard word for "fool" rather than the "canonical" LE MAT. The Hanged Man is LE PANDVT, the Emperor LANPEREVT, Empress LINPERATRICE, and Justice IVSTTICE. Most disconcertingly, every Ace is an AR and every Jack is a VARLET. I understand, of course, that when the deck was printed I/J and U/V had not become spuriously differentiated, but even so these spellings seem rather odd. Some of these make some sense in French phonology, but not ATREMPANCE.

I would hesitate to construct an elaborate theory about the possible meanings of these variations. I wonder, though, if there is a meaning in them. I'd hesitate to speculate about these things, though. Then again, since we are, after all, divining with playing cards, we have to be open to the possibility that there may be significance in what seems to be random or chaotic. The Jewish Qabalah, after all, was originally founded on the notion that there may be significance in seemingly random textual features of the Torah. There may be meaning in some of the less sophisticated features of the Marseilles tarot, even if that meaning is created by later generations and was never suspected by the original woodcutter.
 

Premdas

Some lights on the Camaoin's that is also the Jodo's, don't forget

Hi everybody, I am happy to find this thread on Jodo/Camoin's deck, that I consider as a really important deck for many reasons, the first being the esoteric meaning.

For example, it's clear for me that the Woman in the Arcana XVII is kneeling on a red FONDATION. This is a direct allusion of the foundamental principle of the emanation, that is otherwise presented in the first word of the Torah, Beraeshit. The last part of this word means a active (Yod) fondement (ShT), and the first part, création or émanation (BaRAE).

So I'm sure this red "ramp" was there in an old hand-painted Tarot, the one that probably was found by an Italian who fisrt began to produce his own interpretation. Some other original document must have been found later, and carters like Conver decided to restaure it, without the "improvisation" of some others. But this is my theory, I don't ask people to believe it. What is sure is that we find this "ramp" in blue in some other decks, more or less clear, and that the original colours and some details of the original must have been deteriorated with time. So Conver did as he could; but probably there was some other deck restaured prior to all these we know, restablishing some original details and colours.

This is what says Camoin and Jodorowski. The fist claim that due to his position as a représentant of the maison Camoin, he had acces to numerous old deck that nobody else than the owners knows:

"Le Tarot de Nicolas Conver gravé en 1760 fut longtemps considéré comme le plus ancien Tarot de Marseille fabriqué à Marseille. Mais je démontrai en 2001 qu’il existait un autre jeu, le jeu de Tarot de Marseille fabriqué par François Chosson qui était plus ancien et qui datait de 1672, c’est-à-dire près d’un siècle avant le Conver. Le seul jeu de Chosson officiellement connu était conservé dans un musée suisse, à Soleure, et personne ne connaissait son origine. C’est grâce à des documents de mes grands-parents que j’ai pu démontrer que François Chosson faisait partie d’une dynastie de maîtres cartiers marseillais. Et je sais qu’il existe d’autres jeux de Tarot de Marseille fabriqués à Marseille encore bien plus anciens que le Tarot de François Chosson (1672). Je le sais d’une part grâce à des documents et d’autre part grâce à toute une série de codes secrets que j’ai découverts dans la structure du Tarot de Marseille et qui me permette de dater ce symbolisme comme datant du 1er siècle et d’autre part comme ayant une origine marseillaise."

http://www.camoin.com/tarot/-Le-Tarot-de-Nicolas-Conver-.html

And Jodowski on his side says that all the colour of this deck were empreinted from an old hand painted deck found in Mexico. I asked Camoin about this deck on his forum, he just doesn't ant to speak about it, saying "it is not because Jodorowsky decided to speak about an old mexican tarot that I must do so", and "it's a secret for initiate", as are also for him the others old deck he claims to have consulted for his restauration. Camoin answered me that we must have some merit to have acces to these things, and people doesn't have this merit because they are eating meat (!). I answered that I am vegetarian since 11 years, then he said nothing more...

OK, what to do? The tower of Camoin has a door, but it's quite difficult to enter. I don't understand that "secret for initiate" relating to deck who should be shown to the entire world, as universal patrimony!

Anyway, I have great respect for this work of restauration (yes, I insist, a restauration). For all the theories develloped beside this meticulous work, it is something else...

A last note about the door on the arcana XVI: maybe some old documents were depainting such a tower with a door, because in hebrew, BaBeL means 'door of God " or "Door of Elévation". So, The tower by itself IS A DOOR. In that sense, to put a supplementary door is a graphic pleonasm. Anyway, the symbolism is speaking, the moon with the teat is coherent for the reason that the hevrew letter Dalet is symbolised by a door and an udder, and because the hebrew BaBiL'oN is finishing with the root L'oN ich describe à night vision, fluctuatings lights and colours, and because the root LN itself can refers to the moon (from this root, the geek HeLeN) ; but I don't feel this door was there in the original Tarot, the origin of which I situate in the end XII or XIII century. I think it comes from a separate representation.

Some handpainted original Tarot (not published but reserved for the adpet secret study and meditation) were probably found in the current of the XIV°, but you can imagine they were not well conserved; but some details which were missing here could be found there (for example, from where do come the dices on the table of LE BATELEUR in the Grimaud? Some old document or just imagination?), so this work of reconstitution is really important.


Escuse my bad english, I am french....
 

Greg Stanton

This is an awesome thread, thank you Lee!

Here is my review of The Way of the Tarot, which I'm in the process of cleaning up and submitting to Solandia:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=2084960&postcount=1

I think Camoin's/Jodorowsky's claim that their's is the "true" tarot is arrogant at best. In the book, Jodorowsky cites all kinds of tiny details and assigns to them weird meanings of his how devising. These details supposedly came from a number of old decks they surveyed and compared. It would have been interesting if they had catalogued what came from where, and explained why they made the choices they did. However, all this book offers a bunch of mystical rambling -- no real research or sources are offered to back up any of the claims made.

My assessment of the deck is that it is their personal vision of the Marseille tarot, rather than being an actual restoration. If they had given us details of their supposed "research", it might have had a chance of being what they claim it is. Instead, it is like so many other tarots on the market today: a re-envisioning based on personal ideas.

The images themselves aren't strikingly different from a typical Marseilles, and I think this deck can be used just like any other. One of the reasons most of us like to read with a Marseilles is that the readings are direct and clear, unburdened with esoteric gibberish. If you buy into Jodorowsky's esoterica, however, you may as well be reading with the Liber T or any other deck filled with secret symbols.

That's my take, anyway.
 

Premdas

Helle Greg

It depends on what u mean by "reading"... because besides "voyance", Marseille's Tarot is a picture book to read for opening little by little the "third eye". There is a way of reading it, and the method is given by the book itself. So, it's always better to have, if not the original, the best translation possible.

As far as authentic esoteric symbolism is involved, respecting the inner spirit of Marseille's Tarot, the Jodo/Camoin is certainly one of the best decks.

"The images themselves aren't strikingly different from a typical Marseilles, and I think this deck can be used just like any other."

No, please, don't make this mistake!

"One of the reasons most of us like to read with a Marseilles is that the readings are direct and clear, unburdened with esoteric gibberish."

Oh oh, so clear for u ? Really? Really really clear ? So it's done, u got the Knowledge?

"If you buy into Jodorowsky's esoterica, however, you may as well be reading with the Liber T or any other deck filled with secret symbols."

Well, it's not a "Golden Dawn" one... there is really something behind all this esoteric gibberish, just have to learn how to read...

But I totally agree with U about all that mystery made around the documents they used to restaure this Tarot. This is really not clear...
 

Premdas

... and I am sure even the autors themselves do not really understand their own restauration... and the depth of the missing symbolism they have reintroduced... It's not because they found some details lacking present in some old documents that they know what they mean.

The real book is not the "Way of Tarot", it is the Tarot itself, the Book and the Way...
 

Greg Stanton

Premdas, I couldn't disagree with you more. And I'm going to just leave it at that.

Interesting that you resurrected two very old threads, seemingly for the purpose of attacking Kris Hadar and defending Camoin.

Personally, I think it's arrogant for anyone to call their own restoration of an old tarot "true" or "authentic". There is simply too much we don't know to be 100 percent certain about what the original artist(s) intended -- or if they intended anything at all, other than to make a deck of playing cards.

At least Kris Hadar is forthcoming about his own methods and sources. Jodorowsky's analysis of the cards is bizarre, off-target and delusional, and his book completely discredits his and Camoin's work. It's too bad, too, because it's a good deck, although not really an improvement over the Grimaud. If they had the decency to say "this is our conception of what Conver may have intended" rather than implying that theirs is the REAL and TRUE tarot, and all others are fakes -- all the while imposing endless psuedo-mystical symbols and meanings onto the cards -- their work might have been taken seriously. As it stands, it's simply another personal interpretation of the tarot (albeit one that bears considerable resemblance to the Marseilles of Nicholas Conver).
 

eltarot78

Hi all, for years I come seeking the traces of the Tarot as part of the Jodo-Camoin Tarot.

The egg of the La Papese who has show so mysteriously Tourrase (Camoin) in your forum,

This is the Tarot of Suzanne Bernardin (1840)



and then they tell you more
 

le pendu

Years ago I did some research in the spirit of Hadar and Camoin, and discovered some hitherto unknown elements on La Maison Diev! If you look very, very closely, you can see a third figure falling from the tower and other little details that, until my brilliant discoveries (which I share with you now for your enlightenment), were completely unknown except to the master craftsmen (and secret initiates) who created this, the one true tarot.

I offer for your contemplation: http://www.tarotforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2477
 

Greg Stanton

le pendu, you made my night. Thank you :)