Golden dawn - A Genuine Transmission ?

ravenest

" It must be underlined that the Rituals of R.R. & A.C. were not entirely created by MacGregor Mathers, but that he was inspired by those of the German Golden Rosy+Cross, which I am quite sure he received by regular transmission. Indeed, I have the proof that the GOLDEN DAWN wands patterns were inspired by the Moses' Wand described in a very secret and old German document of the Golden Rosy Cross (dated 1514), a copy of which is in my possession and that I received from the Internal college of this Order. It is quite interesting to note that this document contains strong Polish Jewish Cabalistic influences, and especially those coming from the school of Shabathai Zévi, who proclaimed himself in 1666 to be the Messiah awaited by all the Jews. This date (1666) is very interesting, because it is in accordance with at solar cycle of 111 years. Indeed, the German Golden Rosy+Cross Order was linked to this 111 years cycle; for instance, it was in 1777 that his Order was reformed with a new scale of grades, which was also adopted both by the S.R.I.A. and the Golden Dawn founded 111 years later in 1888. Now, the Golden Rosy+Cross document which I referred to above, contains also many rituals which we find once again in the Golden Dawn (for instance several versions in Latin and in Hebrew of the Cabalistic Cross Ritual and the Middle Pillar Ritual). So, this document constitutes the proof that the Golden Dawn magical rituals are in fact the developments of those of the German Golden Rosy Cross; but as these latter rituals are still very secret, it is also proof that the founders of the GOLDEN DAWN received a genuine German Rosicrucian transmission... "

http://www.golden-dawn.org/theoriginsofQabalahoftheGoldenDawn.html
 

Richard

What's bothersome is the claim that the proof is in a "very secret document."

That's the sort of "logic" that Christine Payne-Towler uses in, for example, her claim that Levi's Hebrew letter correlations of the Trumps are correct, but the proof is in some insanely high degrees of Continental Freemasonry, which are inaccessible to ordinary mortals.
 

kwaw

That the G.D. grade system and titles were based upon that of an older German G.D. group, adapting it to the ToL, has long been well established, it's been published before, but is not in itself evidence of direct lineage (merely appropriation)--can't recall where but will see if I can dig up the references. That they shared many common rituals too is new to me, but I tend to take anything resting on someones say so to secret documents t can't be made public with a pinch of salt. There have been many speculations about a Shabbatean influence, including by myself; the long tradition of placing Saturn with Binah (which goes back to at least the 12th century) for example was perpetuated through lines of Shabbatean schools of kabbalah (however, in this case the simpler explanation, as opposed to a direct line of Shabbatean influence, is that 19th century hermetic schools of Kabbalah preferred the astro-magical model presented in Agrippa, than the Jewish Conversion models of Mirandola, Kircher, Reuchlin et al). Speculative parallels between Shabbataenism/Frankism as far as I am aware remain just that, parallels, not evidence of direct influence, without supporting proof of publicly available documents.
 

Frater Benedict

I have read the Rosicrucian rituals used in Germany in the 18th century. They do not share content with the GD rituals. The names of the grades/degrees are almost the same, however (Zelator was often called Junior in the 18th century, and an Ipsissimus grade didn't exist in the 18th century, and a Neophyte grade/degree wasn't in use after 1767).

The same names for the grades/degrees are also used by Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia (and its equivalents in other parts of the English speaking world), but with a third set of ritual content. Just because a grade/degree in an esoteric order has the same name as a grade/degree in another order, that doesn't mean that the rituals are identical in content.
 

ravenest

Of course not. Are you suggesting that is the basis of my question ?

Did you read the link I provided which goes way beyond any such simple set of associations you suggest?

I dont think anyone here is suggesting a connection purely through names of degrees ? :confused:

I would rather hear about the differences that you discovered that lead you to your conclusion , rather than a refutation of a point that hasn't being made.

Also, I am interested in 'shared content' (or not shared) ... could not a 'genuine transmission' be a 'new manifestation' and hold variant content ?

Or are you saying it is just so different that it is highly improbable?

( I am usually skeptical that it was a genuine transmission by the way , but as further info comes to light, I am open to looking at it and see where it leads ... I dont suppose the documents you are refering to are available in English ... or a link to it ? )
 

Frater Benedict

The Gold- und Rosenkreuz order didn't use any reproduction of the vault of Christian Rosenkreuz in any of their rituals. SRIA did, and it was probably from the latter Mathers got the idea.

The thinking which associate degrees with sephiroth (well-known from Waite and Case) is entirely lacking in the GuRC rituals (and the degrees are not eleven/ten in number, but nine).

There are no tarot cards, Egyptian deities or Enochian references in the GuRC rituals.

The Theoretical degree is concerned with an emanatory Natural Philosophy, which is more alchemical than kabbalistic in nature. The Practical degree concern outer alchemy. A rather brief instruction on Kabbalah and (Lutheran Pietist) Sophiology is given in the Minor degree. Instructions on magic are not given until the Magus degree.

Most rituals takes place around a table laid with symbolic objects. The same table later during the evening was used for a fraternal meal.

If historical and juridical continuity really had tied GD to 18th century Germany, the entire structure ought to have been much closer to the historical predecessor.
 

Frater Benedict

The early membership of the Asiatic Brethren in the 1780's consisted of former members of GuRC, but since the breakup wasn't amicable no 'lineage' existed between them, and the founders of the Asiatic Brethren were highly critical against GuRC, and were, so, not interested in transmitting any GuRC teaching anyhow. The curriculum of the Asiatic Brethren had an emphasis on Kabbalah which GuRC lacked, and the input came from Shabbatean Jews. For a detailed study, read Jacob Katz: 'Jews and Freemasons in Europe 1723-1939' (1970).

The Kabbalah of the Asiatic Brethren became open domain, as it were, when Franz Joseph Molitor published 'Philosophie Der Geschichte Oder Über Die Tradition' (four volumes 1824-1853). A few years ago, a study on Molitor's interpretation of Kabbalah has been published (Katharina Koch: 'Franz Joseph Molitor und die judische Tradition: Studien zu den kabbalistischen Quellen der Philosophie der Geschichte - Mit einem Anhang unveroffentlichter Briefe von F. von Baader, E.J. Hirschfeld, F.J. Molitor und F.W.J. Schelling' (2006)).

For British occultists of Westcott's and Mather's generation one book in English was available, Christian D. Ginsburg's 'The Kabbalah: Its Doctrines, Development and Literature' (1863). Those fluent in Latin, German and Hebrew could of course rely on other printed sources. It is known that Westcott studied Johann Stephan Rittangel's Latin translation of 'Sefer Yetzirah' (1642), and Mather's translated short extracts from Christian Knorr von Rosenroth's 'Kabbala Denudata' (1677-78, translated 1887).
 

Frater Benedict

For a good overview of the degree rituals of the Gold und Rosenkreuz order in German, please read Bernard Beyer: 'Das Lehrsystem des Ordens der Gold- und Rosenkreuzer' (several printings). For the degree lectures in an 18th century Swedish translation, please read: 'Det Gyldene Rosenkorsets teori, praktik och filosofi' (Alkemiska akademin, 2010).