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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
It might simply mean she's a bit out of control LOL. According to Firmicus a square between Venus and Jupiter with Venus in the Superior position (earlier in the zodiac) indicates illicit loves, occupations having to do with clothing and care of the body, You will show a love of adornment, luxury and pleasure but there is a twist in that if you gain prosperity and happiness the conditions reverse. I've left the Moon out of that configuration but I'm sure it will modify the prediction and I'll look and see if there's anything directly about a configuration of all 3.
*Ahem!* I might have some experience with some of the things in that list...
I'm not a clotheshorse, though.

I'm not sure I quite understand what "the conditions reversing" would mean. Which conditions? Do you mean that one would shun those things instead?

Quote:
At my current level of understanding I'd say that the debility in Cancer does count, but it's alleviated or mitigated to an extent as Saturn is in one of the dignities of a sectmate (Jupiter by exaltation) According to the Schmidt approach that will limit Saturn's ability to get anything done except with Jupiter's help, and except in the Sign/House that Saturn is placed in. I can see the overall logic of this but I'm not sure how it pans out in practice and that's something that again might show up in either Stage 3 or 4.
Interesting about needing Jupiter's help, and that Saturn will only being able to get things done in the house or sign he's in. Definitely something to ponder, especially what Jupiter's help would look like. I hope this sort of thing does show up in the later Stages.

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Saturn is Rising because it can be seen in the sky at some stage during the day, even if in Astronomical terms it has already risen when the Sun sets.
Ah, yes, you explained this near the beginning of the thread, I think. Sorry! Thanks for the reminder.

Quote:
Not being seen is taken as reducing it's Fitness being seen adds to it's Fitness. Hellenisitic Astrology is much more based on the visible changes in the heavens than Modern Astrology is, as few Astrologers these days actually go out and look at the sky and even if they do, their view may be dimmed by street lighting, clouds etc.
What's funny is that the actual visual observance in astrology seems almost quaint to our modern perspective, what with our computerized calculations and all. We could be astrologers today and never look at the sky even once! And yet it's so good to remember that looking at the sky is how is all started...

Quote:
Actually it isn't I got that one wrong. I should have said Tines from Jupiter plus the square from the Moon. The Moon is benefic for the most part but I'm not sure I should have used her this way (Sorry Moon) and I missed the Trine from Mars, which falls nearer to Saturn than the square from the Moon. So Saturn isn't quite as lucky there as I originally thought. I will write out 100 time 'I must not rush posts'
You know, if I had been thinking, I'd have thought, "hey wait -- I don't have a trine from Venus to Saturn, not even by sign!" I was just too eager to jump on anything positive! Well, I guess my Saturn is pretty pathetic. And, even if the Moon could be used in that way, and would have been a beneficial influence, with my Moon in such sad shape, could she have even done so?

Off to read Stage 2...
Top   #101
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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Please can you now let me know which area of life you would like me to concentrate on for your stage 3 reading (the Topical reading).
Minderwiz, since Ronia's already had a livelihood/career Stage 3 reading, how about looking at my love relationships for my Stage 3? This should be a pretty easy to target and go into detail, rather than for my career?

p.s. I WILL be responding to the readings for Stages 1 and 2, please bear with me as per our PMs... Blooming Mercury rx *shakes fist*
Top   #102
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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
As mentioned in the earlier post your birth is nocturnal 'but' and the 'but' is that the Moon has set and the Sun is nearing the horizon. This is a situation where Porphyry says it's not clear which of the two Lights dominate. Porphyry mentions that in that case the Ascendant can be taken as the 'Ultimate Ruler' and indeed Delphic Oracle suggests that the Ascendant is used.

However, Porphyry only cites the Ascendant as being used when both Sun and Moon are in Decline in the West. He says that if the Moon is in Decline in the West but the Sun is approaching the eastern horizon, then the Sun should be chosen. He adds that if both planets are below the horizon but in an angular or succedent house, then the Moon should be chosen because it is the Light of Sect.

With your chart, both are under the horizon, the Sun is in the second place - which is a succedent house, and the Moon is in the sixth, a Declining, or Cadent House,

If I use the quadrant house system that bears Porpyry's name, the Sun is in the First house, though some 25 degrees from the Ascendant; the Moon is in the sixth House though about 14 degrees from the Descendant - but crucially the Sun is going in the right direction and the Moon is going in the wrong direction.

So I'm going to take the Sun as the Ultimate Ruler, though I have to state that I'm not very confident of that, though more so than for the Moon and Ascendant.
I follow your reasoning here, and think it's as sound as any. All one can do is pick a ruler and go ahead with delineation, and then see how it pans out. I'm sure a Hellenistic astrologer with a lot of experience would develop preferences for these situations over time.

I agree that my chart is just plain messy for this calculation, and remember being similarly confused when looking at the guidelines for Pars Hyleg/alcochoden calculations.

Quote:
That makes Jupiter the 'Managing Director' and indeed the Chief of Staff to the Managing Director, as Jupiter rules the Sun's sign of Sagittarius and also the Bounds in which the Sun falls.

Mars is the Ascendant Ruler (and along with Mercury) he's in the Ascendant. So Mars is best placed to steer the Nativity but using the map and instructions provided by Jupiter. In business terms, Mars is the Chief Administrative Officer.
So, roughly speaking, Jupiter will mostly determine where I'm going in life, and what my life should be about, etc., and Mars is the one who will do his best to get me there, using his own methods?

Quote:
The ruler of Fortune is Mercury, who is also in the first. But whilst Mercury is well placed, the Lot is not. It's in an adverse House to Mercury (and the Ascendant) being in the eighth. Taking advantages of opportunities and avoiding the risks that come your way may not be easy and may be something of a 'seat of the pants' experience.
Noted, and can see this as being somewhat true. Not because of any particular examples, I guess, but I'd say that while I haven't been unlucky in life so far, I'm not someone who is good at finding opportunities under every rock.

Quote:
The Trigon Lords for the Sun are: Jupiter, Sun and Saturn in that order.

Jupiter and Sun are in Succedent Houses, Saturn is in a Cadent or a Declining House. That seems to suggest that it's the Last part of your life where the troubles will be felt (assuming that this method has any validity at all).
To make sure I'm understanding this correctly: is it because Saturn is generally unfit that the third of life he rules will be the one to watch out for?

Quote:
Finally the prenatal lunation was a New Moon in Scorpio, so the ruler is Mars

Possible Supreme Rulers are:

Mars- Ruler of Ascendant and prenatal lunation - Angular, Rising, Direct, and in it's own places.

Mercury - Lord of Fortune - Angular, Rising and Direct and in the place of a sectmate

Jupiter -First Trigon Lord - Succedent, Rising and Direct, In it's own Place

Mars seems to be the winner there,

Indeed Mars is also the Almuten of the Chart, using Lilly's method and also is shown as such in Morinus.

So in summary, Mars is the strongest planet and is doing the steering. Jupiter the MD is in Pisces, trining Mars and in a slightly later terminology is in mutual reception with Mars. The only issues seem to be trying to use what befalls you in a positive way, rather than simply being surprised by it and making sure you keep doing that in the last third of your life.
Okay, a couple of questions:
1) I'm sorry if I'm overlooking something, but how are Mars & Jupiter in mutual reception? I understand that it's not a Hellenistic term, but I'd still like to know which "dignities" you're referring to. Is this a sectmate thing?

2)Is there an easy dignity-type chart you could point to for Hellenistic references for things like Trigon lords, sectmates, etc.?

3) To understand your reasoning with regard to the bolded sentence above: You've determined it's the last third of life that could be problematic because weak, unfit Saturn will be influencing it, correct? But then the potential troubles you've mentioned for this period are due to my poorly placed Lot of Fortune. Why? Wouldn't the Lot be troublesome for my whole life? Or, alternatively, why wouldn't the last third of my life be plagued by troubles related to my Saturn being unable to manage his duties?

Or, is it this: A) the Lot of Fortune being badly placed is one of my chart's clear problem areas when it comes to general effectiveness, and B) my weak Saturn ruling the last third of my life is the clearest problem related to rough time estimates, and so C) therefore it's reasonable to conclude that the likely culprit for troubles during this period will be the most obvious villian (LoF)?

Sorry if this is annoyingly persnickety.
Top   #103
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For my Stage 3 topic areas, here are my priorities, and you can do what you will:

1. My biggest questions in life are always: "What should I DO with my life? What are my greatest talents? Where should I focus my energy? What should I pour myself into? What should I study? Where can I give the most? Where could I be the most successful?" All the annoyingly complicated questions that we all have. So, I'm not sure where to find this in the chart (is it career related, or 9th house of higher learning and spirituality?), or even if Hellenistic astrology addresses these issues of vocation/calling.

1a/2. In a related question, I suppose I wonder if I will be successful enough at whatever this vocation is to be financially independent. I'm not sure how intertwined or separate these things are for your analysis.

3. Love life, I guess. Although I'm married and generally happy (and my husband is a wonderful, kind man), my idealistic, wild-child Venus is always wondering, is this it? Where is my big, dramatic, passionate love story? Isn't that terrible!!?! But on the other hand, I suppose it would also be good to know if my currently happy, comfortable, and companionable life in this area will be continue (if I didn't just jinx it with my horrific statement above. )

4. General health outlook.
Top   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
You can download a copy of Janus on a monthly trial basis (and this used to be the case with DO, though I don't see that option now). My experience with Janus is through the trial option, so I didn't get to explore everything by any means. Janus does do the Medieval Firdaria, so it can do what you want in terms of showing time periods (the freebie Morinus can do the same). From memory Janus was the easier to get used to. I have a friend who rates Janus as the best for Traditional Astrology, though for Hellenistic Astrology per se, DO is unrivaled. Both allow the use of the outers and asteroids, so you can use both modern and traditional. DO though has a really 'messy' installation process it's not as easy as Janus by any stretch of the imagination and it comes with its own atlas, which is 'quirky' and gave me quite a few issues.

Incidentally there's a freebie based on DO called Aphesis, and I'll be suggesting that for people who want to do some of their own time periods using a Hellenisitic method. It's quite easy to install and use and therefoe it might give you a nice set of options when added to Janus.
Thanks for the information, and for the heads-up that it was a messy installation. I've used the trial of Janus before, and like it well enough. I think I just fantasize about a program that will print out a nice "forecast tree" sort of thing that will show which forecasting methods are active for any given time period, to make it easy to find time periods that are most likely to manifest effects. I'm sure I'm delusional and that I will have to do more manual work and comparison of lists than I'd like.

I successfully installed Aphesis. I'm not sure why Timaeus is being problematic (the error is that the "delination files cannot be found" and then it freezes). Sounds like Delphic Oracle is worth further investigation, though, so I guess I'll have to contact their customer support.
Top   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalliope View Post

So, roughly speaking, Jupiter will mostly determine where I'm going in life, and what my life should be about, etc., and Mars is the one who will do his best to get me there, using his own methods?
I think the answer to that is probably 'Yes' but that's putting my own spin on it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalliope
To make sure I'm understanding this correctly: is it because Saturn is generally unfit that the third of life he rules will be the one to watch out for?
The reasoning is that Saturn is

a) The Co-operating Lord of the Fire Trigon and so takes the last phase of life

b) Saturn is in the ninth, which is a cadent House and these are the less powerful in terms of getting things done

So the last third of your life (approximately) will be the most challenging.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalliope
Okay, a couple of questions:
1) I'm sorry if I'm overlooking something, but how are Mars & Jupiter in mutual reception? I understand that it's not a Hellenistic term, but I'd still like to know which "dignities" you're referring to. Is this a sectmate thing?
Your birth is still a nocturnal one, even though I've assigned Ultimate Rulership to the Sun, because it's nearly rising and the Moon has set. Mars is the Nocturnal Trigon Lord for the Water Triplicity So he has a dignity in Pisces. Jupiter is in the Bounds of Mars, so there is a low level mutual reception. Of course both are in their own Signs as well, so both are well dignified.

I'm using the Dorothean Triplicities and the Egyptian Bounds or Terms, because all the Hellenistic Astrologers except Ptolemy, seemed to use those. Oddly because of a historical accident, it was Ptolemy's revised system that made it through into medieval Europe and hence to Lilly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalliope
2)Is there an easy dignity-type chart you could point to for Hellenistic references for things like Trigon lords, sectmates, etc.?
That's a good point. I'll copy one and post it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalliope
3) To understand your reasoning with regard to the bolded sentence above: You've determined it's the last third of life that could be problematic because weak, unfit Saturn will be influencing it, correct? But then the potential troubles you've mentioned for this period are due to my poorly placed Lot of Fortune. Why? Wouldn't the Lot be troublesome for my whole life? Or, alternatively, why wouldn't the last third of my life be plagued by troubles related to my Saturn being unable to manage his duties?

Or, is it this: A) the Lot of Fortune being badly placed is one of my chart's clear problem areas when it comes to general effectiveness, and B) my weak Saturn ruling the last third of my life is the clearest problem related to rough time estimates, and so C) therefore it's reasonable to conclude that the likely culprit for troubles during this period will be the most obvious villian (LoF)?
Yes, the Lot of Fortune is not well placed so there's always as issue with spotting the opportunity or avoiding the risks. The first two parts of your life (the Jupiter and Solar periods) are likely to be reasonable but the last part (according to Valens) is the weaker part. I just drew the conclusion that that was the time during which you should be especially careful of risks, so that you don't do anything to make it a self fulfilling prediction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalliope
Sorry if this is annoyingly persnickety.
Annoyingly pernickety is alright (I'm a secret masochist LOL)

Seriously, this is the first time I've tried the methods and I don't have any experience to fallback on, so your feedback is most welcome.
Top   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalliope View Post
For my Stage 3 topic areas, here are my priorities, and you can do what you will:

1. My biggest questions in life are always: "What should I DO with my life? What are my greatest talents? Where should I focus my energy? What should I pour myself into? What should I study? Where can I give the most? Where could I be the most successful?" All the annoyingly complicated questions that we all have. So, I'm not sure where to find this in the chart (is it career related, or 9th house of higher learning and spirituality?), or even if Hellenistic astrology addresses these issues of vocation/calling.

1a/2. In a related question, I suppose I wonder if I will be successful enough at whatever this vocation is to be financially independent. I'm not sure how intertwined or separate these things are for your analysis.

3. Love life, I guess. Although I'm married and generally happy (and my husband is a wonderful, kind man), my idealistic, wild-child Venus is always wondering, is this it? Where is my big, dramatic, passionate love story? Isn't that terrible!!?! But on the other hand, I suppose it would also be good to know if my currently happy, comfortable, and companionable life in this area will be continue (if I didn't just jinx it with my horrific statement above. )

4. General health outlook.
OK I'll see what I can do about some/all of those

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalliope View Post
Thanks for the information, and for the heads-up that it was a messy installation. I've used the trial of Janus before, and like it well enough. I think I just fantasize about a program that will print out a nice "forecast tree" sort of thing that will show which forecasting methods are active for any given time period, to make it easy to find time periods that are most likely to manifest effects. I'm sure I'm delusional and that I will have to do more manual work and comparison of lists than I'd like.

I successfully installed Aphesis. I'm not sure why Timaeus is being problematic (the error is that the "delination files cannot be found" and then it freezes). Sounds like Delphic Oracle is worth further investigation, though, so I guess I'll have to contact their customer support.
I have Timaeus, it came with Delphic Oracle but I uninstalled it. It has a separate database for charts, so you've either got to enter the same data twice, or go through the fiddly procedure of setting up a new database and then remember to use the 'migration tool' each time you run updates. Apart from the system tray notifictions of transits (which can be annoying if you've got the sound turned on) it really doesn't do anything that DO can't do.

I used to use Aphesis and it's quite good as a freebie but DO is so much better for going from the Time Lord Period direct to the Transits (or progressions) that were in force on any particular day. If you are interested in a week or a month, it's easy to step through the transits/progressions and get an immediate visual picture of what's happening.

It's taken me some time to get used to DO and it still has quirks I've not solved but it offers quite a bit for Medieval Astrology and there's nothing to touch it for the Hellenistic stuff.

I still have a soft spot for Morinus though, it was the main reason I didn't go for Janus. The additional Janus functions that I would use did not justify the expense of buying it.
Top   #107
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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Now that is really is interesting in the light of some of the things that have emerged during the thread. I've not thought of linking this in to Astro-Cartography but that might well be worth an examination in the future. Also interesting that Mars and the Moon feature here. I'ts another way of saying that Transits aren't everything and that the Mars/Lunar expressions may pop up in different ways.
Yes, it is interesting. The problem is I don't understand why the lines are marked MC at the top, for example, but DC or AC at the bottom...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
So it's your almost instinctive reaction - perhaps that Trave/Fortune/Spirit connection seems to be the natural you.
Yes, it is an instinctive reaction. Which, in relation to the 7th house, is a problem for many people (partners) - I pack my bags easily. But it makes me happy. LOL

Minderwiz, I asked before but you may have missed it: how about my periods in life - which third is going to be easier and which - harder? I tried to figure out myself but I couldn't. Is it based on the triplicity lords and their dignity?
Top   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia View Post
I may have missed it: how about my periods in life - which third is going to be easier and which - harder? I tried to figure out myself but I couldn't. Is it based on the triplicity lords and their dignity?
Your first third is the most difficult, which was actually ruled by Venus (Which is in a cadent house) Followed by Mars (which is angular and therefore strong) and then by Moon, which is also angular. So you may well have had your worst period.
Top   #109
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That's a relief! Thank you! I thought these were for a nocturnal birth, I'm so lost. LOL Back to the beginning of the thread!
Top   #110




 


 


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