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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Thanks for the feedback, Ronia. It's just the kind that I need, asking questions because it will make me check through and see if I really understand what I have written (remember this is new to me too) and therefore enable me to target my reading and research.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia View Post

If I understand correctly, this all makes the Sun the ďcaptain of the shipĒ and not Saturn? Also, isnít the Ascendant ruling the body, the outer appearance and affecting relationships with others being opposite the Descendant while the Sun is our inner drive and core? Iím a bit confused here because Iíve always felt Saturnís transits very strongly while Sun is much too fast to be felt, IMHO. I, for one, hardly feel the Sun even when itís making an aspect to a natal planet. However, I feel very strongly the sign of the Sun and can say about myself that much of what is written about my sun sign is 100% true for me. Iím kind of a typical representative of the sign and usually act as one. To the point where a person from my closest family died in an accident an hour before I was born. Not to mention that death has been a constant presence since my day one. The books were right in my case.
No, it doesn't make the Sun the captain, that role falls to the strongest planet overall. It does mean that the 'man with the plan' - Saturn - is not in a good position to steer the ship himself (as he would be if placed in the first) and will need help. The Sun as the Ascendant ruler is first in line, if you like, to provide that help. Whether he does or not remains to be seen (it will be looked at later in stages 2, 3 & 4) At this stage the emphasis is solely on assessing the capacity of the planets, for good or ill. Being in an 'alien' place the Sun lack's essential dignity so in non-Greek speak, I would have said that it is in the right place to help but may not have the strength to help. Incidentally re-reading the (second hand) information about being near an angle to be 'enthusiastic' the 5 degree rule seems to apply to planets that are in a cadent place (such as the ninth to the tenth) but only 5 degrees or less away. I'm still confused as why the Sun is not 'enthusiastic' though the only explanation that jumps to mind is that the 'dynamic house' is the angular house by sign rather than by quadrant. Although the Sun is in the same place as your MC, that happens to be the eleventh place, not the tenth. But that explanation does not seem to work for Jupiter in the fourth place, which Delphic Oracle tells me is not 'goaded' or 'enthusiastic' - of course DO might be wrong, so that's another thing for me to check on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
The thing is relationships have always been a vital part of my life but this goes far beyond romantic relationships. In fact, everything that has happened in my life, for good or bad, has been based on important relationships and connections with other people. Work, career, money, endings, moving, big life changes, etc.

As I said above, Iíve always felt Saturnís movement strongly. The thing is that I also experience events based on his transits that are very literal according to which house heís passing through. Meaning, he brings exactly what is written in the books about the house. My Saturn return, for one, was an absolutely glorious time. Everything fell into place like touched with a magic wand and again, was based on relations, connections and relationships with various people. The right people showed up at the right time and it was a smooth sailing for me, everything I wanted came true in a very short time period.
Despite it's title the Lot of Eros is not just concerned with romantic or erotic relationships, but relationships in general. So that would certainly fit in with your observation that relationships for good or ill are an important feature in your life. The Lot actually lies just between Saturn and the Moon, so the Saturn/Moon conjunction is confining it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jupiter
Jupiter is a double edged sword for me, IMHO. I have had pleasant times which I can easily recall, especially during my Jupiter returns which usually play out quite literally in accordance with Jupiterís nature (studying, travelling, optimism, luck) but Iíve also noticed that each time he turns retrograde he takes something important from me. Most of the times itís been money.
The Saturn/Jupiter link should be supportive but one thing I did not cover at this stage is that Jupiter's opposition to Mercury and Mercury's sextile to Saturn bring these three planets together. Moreover given the Lot of Fortune next to Mercury it means that Jupiter opposes the Lot. It is angular from the Lot so it should be significant in how your luck pans out but that doesn't necessarily means that the luck will always be good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
I tried to recall some events from the times Mars has conjunct natal Jupiter and the other way around but I couldnít. This year Jupiter is going to conjunct natal Mars in the summer again and I am planning another big change (moving) for this time period. Otherwise, I am not sure about JupiterÖ or Mars. These two have been a bit of a mystery for me. Despite the fact that Mars is the Sun ruler as wellÖ and in trine to the SunÖ
However, the most significant for me event, the birth of my son, happened on a day when Jupiter was conjunct the Ascendant (one degree applying) and transiting Mars was exactly conjunct natal Mars. Mercury and Venus were conjunct in the 1st (Placidus), Sun in the 2nd was opposite Venus in the 8th. This was not a date I had chosen (c-section) but I believe things happen at the right time, so I let my doctor decide on the date. As a result my son has many of my natal aspects in his chart. By the way, Saturn was retro at this point and on the cusp of the 8th (Placidus).
How important this aspect is I'm not sure (in Hellenistic terms) but that might possibly show up in Stages 4 and probably Stge 3 when we look at the events in your life and also the predictions for the future, together with the areas of life that are affected.

[quot=Ronia]
Considering how fast the Moon is, how can we follow if she did have a role in health issues? Iíve noticed Mars on the Ascendant, for example, usually does bring a cut or an injury but the Moon? I can certainly connect her to pregnancy as it lasts longer, not sure if I can recall anything else though, sheís too fast. Mood swings, yes, but not else.[/quote]

We are not just considering transits here but also the times when the Moon rules a period of your life. That's something to consider in Stage 4, especially as in 4 years time you start a major lunar period that will last for 25 years. Now given the Moon as ruler of your seventh House that might be a significant period in terms of relationships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
The Moon in my chart for many years signified my absent family, all I have not had, abuse, violence, etc. Coming from women and those were close ones. I did shut the door though. At the time of my Saturn return, and never looked back.
The Moon does square your fourth House, so there will be some tension between family and relationships, especially given the Moon's applying conjunction to Saturn and the 'containing' of the Lot of Eros. The 'exclusion' of the family is a very Saturnian act amd indeed given Mars' placement in the seventh, the point is emphasised as Mars signifies separatinon and severance (Mars too squares the fourth) The timing at your Saturn return shows that these configurations are not always active but might be set off by higher level events.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
Iíve always thought of the Moon/Saturn conjunction as a very literal description of all the pressure I had from these women in my life. Probably it has another explanation based on the ancient astrology.
I'd see it that way too, and possibly women in general - at least those who see themselves as being in charge (Moon in her own house).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
Now, Iím a bit confused here because I have seen Venus as a player in the 8th (Placidus) and indeed, I have always had the otherís money, this has been an universal rule in my life. No matter how much Iíve wanted and tried to make my own money, one way or another, I end up with my money wasted but someone elseís money present and ready to be used. Not my dream exactly but a fact. If I take the Venus as a 9th house player, then it probably explains my love for travelling, foreign lands, the urge to be on the road, to get away and to be freeÖ Also, Iíve been in relationships with foreigners often, married abroad, my work has taken me to foreign lands, I worked with foreign peopleÖ How about the mutual reception Venus/Mercury, is it significant in ancient astrology?
Whole sign houses can often throw a different slant on things - makes you look at them from a different angle. That's not to say the quadrant approach is wrong, but imore that neither shows the entire picture. The mutual reception is something I want to look into but simply at the level of being each other's ruler, some form of co-operation is implied. It means that Venus as ruler of Fortune might be dependent on Mercury to try and play for good luck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
Well, Iíve had many injuries as a child, Iíve also been on the way to the other world four times, but have come back. LOL I am prone to accidents, I do like aggressive sports and competition, was in sports myself, spent many years competing, had to stop because of the many injuries. But I keep doing sports every day, itís vital for me. On the other hand, my son was born at a Mars/Mars conjunction. How about the Marsís trine to the Sun?
Yes I think I left out the trine to the Sun. This is a 'friendly' configuration so I don't see it as being too troublesome, despite Mars being the out of sect Malefic. But from your account there, it might well indicate those accidents when you are trying to beat your friends or simply trying to impose yourself on luck. The eleventh is the house of good spirit, it's where you try and do good for yourself - winning a competition might be such an attempt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
Iím not sure if I get this one. He wants to be noticed would probably explain my desire to write but if he draws attention, thenÖ Iím not complaining, I usually do draw attention but not of Mercurian nature. LOL



Thanks, Minderwiz. It is interesting although Iím afraid I donít understand it all.
It's not something I've used before so I am 'going by the book' but it will be interesting to see whether Mercury periods are ones where luck comes into play. In terms of career and indeed public activities generally, you've been in a Mercury period since 1998. This seems to have brought a mixed bag of luck though. Perhaps it's something we could look at when we get to stages 3 and 4.

Edited to add:

I've solved the 'goading' or enthusiasm' issue. I was out for a walk this morning and thinking it over. If I use a quadrant system such as Placidus or Regiomontanus (or indeed the Hellenistic system, Porphyry) the Sun whilst still in Scorpio is shifted to the ninth House, which is a cadent House and my rereading of 'goading' says that I should only include it if it's within 5 degrees of the tenth cusp - it's well over that limit. This is a case of missing the obvious, whilst looking for a more obscure meaning On that basis Jupiter is in the third house and thus out of contention too.
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Ronia  Ronia is offline
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Hi Minderwiz OK, I get it now, I was a bit ahead towards stages 3 and 4, I'm sorry. I'll wait and see what happens next. I know it's new to you too and I'm very curious and reading here with interest!

P.S. Very interesting how Mars's keywords fell into place here! Thanks for explaining that, really intriguing!

P.P.S. Ah, even I'm not willing to wait for the next Moon period in terms of relationships! LOL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia View Post

P.P.S. Ah, even I'm not willing to wait for the next Moon period in terms of relationships! LOL
Well that's the main Lunar period, there will be shorter sub periods before then

PS I added the 'addendum' to my post above before I realised you'd replied to it. It just explains that even I miss the obvious
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Edited to add:

I've solved the 'goading' or enthusiasm' issue. I was out for a walk this morning and thinking it over. If I use a quadrant system such as Placidus or Regiomontanus (or indeed the Hellenistic system, Porphyry) the Sun whilst still in Scorpio is shifted to the ninth House, which is a cadent House and my rereading of 'goading' says that I should only include it if it's within 5 degrees of the tenth cusp - it's well over that limit. This is a case of missing the obvious, whilst looking for a more obscure meaning On that basis Jupiter is in the third house and thus out of contention too.
Um... Now I'm totally lost. LOL What's the Sun, enthusiastic or not? And how does this affect Jupiter?
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Originally Posted by Ronia View Post
Um... Now I'm totally lost. LOL What's the Sun, enthusiastic or not? And how does this affect Jupiter?
Both of them are not 'enthusiastic'. and to be clear I don't mean that they are unenthusiastic, merely that they're not positively energetic - see the following post.
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Ronia  Ronia is offline
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Looks like my ship has been lacking a captain. LOL How did I manage to survive in the stormy waters? A mystery. Thank you for the clarification. This is getting more and more interesting!
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Schmidt's system....I think


This post is more for me to get my perception straight, though it might possibly serve as a reference point later on, And I'm sure I'll need to add to it in later posts.

There's no clear statement of this, as far as I know, in the original Henllenistic texts. Instead it's Robert Schmidt's ideas of how to assess a planet, in Hellenisitic terms, and more to the point it's my attempt to understand what he's saying. Some of the measures are still used and will be familiar others are 'alien' to say the least.

So here goes.

He uses three clear steps in assessment

1. The fitness of the planet (for its business) that really boils down to how strong it is.

2. It's energy - even if it's fit for purpose it might not actually do much, alternatively if might be weak but attempt to do something.

3. It's Completion - basically can it actually see the job through the job being specific to the individual chart, though in line with the planet's underlying principle).

Each of these is judged on three criteria

1. With reference to the Horizon- basically it's House placement in terms of angular, cadent and succedent. This is familiar territory to most Astrologers today.

2. With referemce to the zodiac - that is is it in a 'friendly' sign or not. This is less familar territory once we get past Sign rulership and possibly exaltation but for those who have followed my Horary threads, the remainder will still be familiar.

3 With reference to the Lights[, that is to the Sun and Moon (especially the Light of the Time (Sun by day and Moon by night). At least one of the criteria here is likely to be familiar but some of them may appear definitely odd and at the moment I only have a hazy idea of one of the criteria.

So taking Jupiter and Saturn in Ronia's chart as examples.

Fitness (for its business)

With reference to the Horizon - Jupiter is in the fourth House so it's angular, and as such very fit for to carry out its business whereas Saturn is in a Succedent House so it's not quite as fit for well placed for business.

With reference to the Zodiac. The criteria here is: a) is it in one of it's own dignities (Ruler, exaltation, Triplicity, Bounds of Decan, or b) is it in a dignity of one of the other planets in its sect. Both Jupiter and Saturn are diurnal planets, as is the Sun, so if either of them are not in one of their own dignities, they will still be 'fit' if they are in one of the dignities of the other two planets. Finally if it's in a dignity of Mercury and Mercury happens to be in the same sect for this particular chart then that too will count as being 'fit'. Jupiter is in Aries, the Sign of Mars (nocturnal) but in the exaltation, triplicity and decan of the Sun, so it's 'fit' because it's in at least one of the dignities of a sectmate. Saturn is in Leo, so it too is in a dignity of a sectmate and therefore fit (it also happens to be in the Sun's Triplicity but we don't need to go that far, it's alread qualified).

With reference to the Lights - Jupiter is Direct (and direct and retrograde motion are a product of Jupiter's phase relationship with the Sun) and Jupiter is rising. Of these two a modern Astrologer would recognise Direct and Retrograde motion but is not likely to place much emphasis on whether Jupiter is rising or not. Saturn to is Direct and it too is Rising It will be seen in the Eastern sky either before sunrise or after sunset)

So both planets come out of the 'fitness analysis as able to do their business (whatever it is)

Energy Level

With reference to the Horizon, this is whether they are in an angle of a quadrant house chart. The Hellenistic term is goaded but angular will do. Schmidt allows a 5 degree margin for a planet that has passed the angle and is now in a cadent house. Using this criteria, Jupiter is in the third House of a quadrant House system and Saturn is in the eighth so neither is 'energetic' relative to the Horizon. Hellenisitc Astrologers used a quadrant house system to assess planets for their length of life calculation and virtually nothing more till the late Hellenistic period. So this energy test may be one we downplay. However as it's one that modern' Astrologers do place a great deal of emphasis on, I think we'll keep it in place.

With reference to the Zodiac - this too is familiar to the modern Astrolger. To be energetic here the planet needs to be in it's own triplicity (Hellenistic Astrologers used the term 'Trigon' or 'Triangle'. Jupiter in Aries is clearly in a Fire Sign and it too rules a Fire Sign, so it is in it's Triplicity. Saturn is also in it's Triplicity. This will come as very out of place to a modern Astrolger who sees Saturn as anything but Firy. The are qute right in that and Hellenisitic Astrology does not see Saturn as secretly Firy. However each Triplicity has three rulers and those three rulers must be of the same sect as the Triplicity. Fire is a diurnal Triplicity and the tree diurnal planets are Sun, Jupiter and Saturn. Saturn is termed a Participating or Co-operating Triplicity Ruler. All the other Triplicities have such rulers.

With reference to the Lights - the test here is whether the planet is in a change phase of it's phase cycle with the Sun. These are whether the planet stations Direct or Retrograde or makes a helical rising or setting during the seven days before and after the birth. Neither planet does make such a change.

So each planet only scores 1 out of 3 here on energy.

Completion

With reference to the Horizon - This is judged from it's House position relative to the Lot of Fortune. Now this is something that no modern Astrologer would use or even think of using. Nor for that matter would William Lilly in the Seventeenth Century but it is something that Hellenisitic Astrologers made a fair amount of use of. The thinking being that if the Ascendant ruler was weak, at least there might be a chance that the Lord of the Lot of Fortune could in some way deliver enough luck to make up for the weak Ascendant ruler. This is not an alien concept if you're into Hermetics or some form of propitiating the gods but if your're a modern scientist you might poo poo the whole idea.

The Lot of Fortune lies in Ronia's tenth House. Saturn in the eighth actually sextiles it and even better, Vettius Valens, the second century Astrologer says the ninth House from Fortune is a very important place (and the radical eighth is the ninth house from Ronia's Lot. Jupiter in the fourth is opposite the Lot and so is angular to it. being angular or pivotal relative to Fortune is a good indicator. So on this criteria Jupiter comes out best but Saturn is not far behind at all. Saturn may see 'luck' make up for his eighth House natal position.

With reference to the zodiac - This is one that the modern Astrologer will easily accept. It is which quadruplicity is the planet in. Jupiter is in Aries, a cardinal (for the Hellenisitc Astrologer a 'Tropical Sign') Cardinal signs indicate the ability to get things going but not necessarily to see them through. On the other hand Saturn is in Leo a fixed ('solid) sign and fixed signs are seen as indicating an ability to see things through, even if they are initiated by someone else. So Saturn scores more highly on this one but Jupiter has some ability to get things going. Being in a Mutable ('bi-corporeal') sign is worst.

With reference to the Lights. This comes down to the relationship to the Moon. The Moon in Traditional Astrolgy is seen as the planet that has most effect on what goes on here on Earth (one only has to look at the tides to see that). If the Moon is applying to a configuration within 13 degrees then this is a good sign that things will be completed. The Moon separating up to 13 degrees is not as good but at least promises something. The Moon separated from the planet (in no configuration by degree)promises little or nothing. Saturn is in an applying conjunction from the Moon (degree aspects can cross sign boundaries) So Saturn also scores here (and quite highly as the Moon is close). Jupiter is in a separating square from the Moon, so something is 'promised' for completion but not as good as Saturn.

That's not the end of Scmidt's planetary analysis, there are two further stages, looking at whether the planet is modified by benefic or malefic influences and what 'joy' it gets from its sect position. I'll look at those after I've gone through the PNA for Ana - which will give me time to reflect on at least one of the criteria which is not clear to me.
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The Hellenistic keywords for the planets are amusingly accurate, as I perceive it, esp. in terms of rulership opposition.
I was wondering if I could sit, too?
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Yes by all means, just PM me your natal details. I'm not disclosing charts or natal details in the thread but obviously I need them to go through the various stages.
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Minderwiz, thanks for posting the latter. I find the part about Lot of Fortune very interesting as I've been trying to decipher the Lot lately. I just wanted to ask if you meant my Jupiter being direct? He's retrograde.
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