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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
I hope my second attempt makes more sense. I'm trying to translate into common terms what is expressed in uncommon terminology and one that I'm only slowly getting to grips with.
I understand your explanations, I just got too much info at once and I got lost in trying to see it in my chart. I'll try and make a table for myself or something, with all requirements and assessments regarding one planet in a separate column because now I go back and forth and I lost any idea which planet is at good condition and which is not. I'm also not very sure I see these assessments as playing out as events in life but may be this will change at later stages. I can see how Saturn performs strongly but he's not performing beneficially all the time, it depends on the house he's transiting through, as I wrote. Same with Jupiter, he's not weak, he does bring events and there have been both positive and negative (when he turns retro by transit). So, the movement seems to be important, the direction. I'm not sure how this is reflected in all these assessments. Then I know Mars is the Almuten of my chart but I rarely feel his transits and I'm trying now, using these techniques, to find out why (more so he's the ruler of the Sun). Same with the Moon or Mercury.

I was also wondering about the aspects. For example, are Mars and Moon considered conjunct despite the fact that one is in the beginning, the other - at the end of a sign? And one is below, the other above the horyzon? How about Moon-Sun, she is in sign trine to the Sun but applies for a degree square, yet the square will be perfected in another sign which coincidentally is the Sun's sign while the Moon is applying form her own sign? Did the ancients considered the trine by sign or the sqaure by degree though in another sign?

P.S. By the way, the idea of a planet being a "malefic" or "benefic" per se is a bit foreign to me. For example, I do like Saturn as an Ascendant ruler because he brings not only physical but also emotional and psychological strength and persistence which may fix some weakness in the chart, IMHO. And may be because I have such ideas, I find it more difficult to relate to the new info now, as the ancient astrologers were more "black and white" in their vision, or at least I see them as such. At the same time Venus may bring unrequited love to someone constantly, is she a benefic in this case? I looked at a chart of a friend of mine some time ago and such a beautiful Libra Venus, Ascendant ruler on top of that, nicely aspected, has been doing precisely this. Not very beneficial for the querent.
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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Energy Level

With reference to the Horizon, this is whether they are in an angle of a quadrant house chart. The Hellenistic term is goaded but angular will do. Schmidt allows a 5 degree margin for a planet that has passed the angle and is now in a cadent house. Using this criteria, Jupiter is in the third House of a quadrant House system and Saturn is in the eighth so neither is 'energetic' relative to the Horizon.
OK, I stumbled here. Which house system puts Jupiter in the 3rd but Saturn in the 8th? Because I get Jupiter in the 3rd and Saturn in the 7th (Placidus) or Jupiter in the 4th and Saturn in the 8th (if I cast the natal as whole sign)... I get one of them angular all the time. Also, I noted that in whole sign Saturn is very close to the 8th cusp... Which took me back to where you counted houses from my Lot of Fortune, I counted 10 houses from the Lot to saturn if I consider him 8th house... Did you consider him 7th house or am I counting wrongly?
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Originally Posted by Ronia View Post
I'm also not very sure I see these assessments as playing out as events in life but may be this will change at later stages. I can see how Saturn performs strongly but he's not performing beneficially all the time, it depends on the house he's transiting through, as I wrote. Same with Jupiter, he's not weak, he does bring events and there have been both positive and negative (when he turns retro by transit). So, the movement seems to be important,
There's a distinction here between the basic or preliminary analysis and seeing how (if at all) the planet pans out in your life. If this was simply an Introduction to modern Astrology I'd be saying something like - 'Saturn in Leo in your eighth house' and you'd be reasonably happy with that. You would still want to know how Saturn pans out buit you'd have some idea of where it is. At a more advance level I'd have picked up on it's aspects and therefore how it connects with other areas of your chart and possibly point out whether it was direct or retrograde. You'd have some idea of how it was expected to affect your life, but how it pans out would still be the clincher.

A post on position for a modern approach is quite brief because most people coming to Astrology soon pick up the idea of the signs and the houses and after a bit the aspects. But for Hellenisitic Astrology there are significant differences from modern practice. Factors are considered which many modern astrologers just would not use. That's why I've tended to labour what should be (to a Hellenistic Astrologer) a simple preliminary step. And of course it's new to me, so I'm having to try and apply a system which I'm not used to and certainly, at this stage, don't fully understand.

So treat what we've been doing as the equivalent of saying 'Saturn in Leo in the eighth'

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Originally Posted by Ronia
I was also wondering about the aspects. For example, are Mars and Moon considered conjunct despite the fact that one is in the beginning, the other - at the end of a sign? And one is below, the other above the horyzon? How about Moon-Sun, she is in sign trine to the Sun but applies for a degree square, yet the square will be perfected in another sign which coincidentally is the Sun's sign while the Moon is applying form her own sign? Did the ancients considered the trine by sign or the sqaure by degree though in another sign?
This is an excellent question because it really makes me think about what I have learned up to now and what I still need to find out. Firstly the conjunction of Mars and Moon is by sign only. Mars and the Moon are 'co-present', they share the same sign, but this is the weakest form of conjunction. From Medieval times, this connection fell out of use and the degree based conjunction became the criteria. As your Horizon (Ascendant/Descendant line) runs approximately through the middle of Cancer, the Moon happens to be above the horizon (is setting) whereas Mars is below the horizon (has already set). In a quadrant house system Mars would be in the sixth house.

The relationship to the Sun is a little bit more tricky. As I see it at the moment, the initial appraisal would be that as Moon is in Cancer and the Sun is Scorpio, the sign relationship is a trine but not one that is degree based. That's still an important point to make because the Sun and the Moon both share the properties of being in a Water sign, they have something in common. Moreover as Cancer is earlier in the zodiac than Scorpio, the Moon is making a right sided trine to Sun and is therefore in a situation where she influences the Sun (for the better).

The applying out of sign square is more problematic. In some traditional astrological practices it just would not be recognised as they would see the square ending at a sign boundary. In modern Astrology the trine would probably be ignored and the square would be what is considered. Now it does appear that Hellenistic Astrologers let their degre base aspects cross sign boundaries (usually to a tight orb of 3 degrees) but I'm really not sure what they would conclude in this particular case. It's something I'll have to research. There's an additional point in that for the 'energy test' of application, the Moon is allowed an orb of 13 degrees and I'm not sure if that orb would be allowed for simply appraising the configuration here. If it is only confined to 3 degrees the square would lapse. Delphic Oracle is showing the aspect as a trine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
P.S. By the way, the idea of a planet being a "malefic" or "benefic" per se is a bit foreign to me. For example, I do like Saturn as an Ascendant ruler because he brings not only physical but also emotional and psychological strength and persistence which may fix some weakness in the chart, IMHO. And may be because I have such ideas, I find it more difficult to relate to the new info now, as the ancient astrologers were more "black and white" in their vision, or at least I see them as such. At the same time Venus may bring unrequited love to someone constantly, is she a benefic in this case? I looked at a chart of a friend of mine some time ago and such a beautiful Libra Venus, Ascendant ruler on top of that, nicely aspected, has been doing precisely this. Not very beneficial for the querent.
The terms 'benefic' and 'malefic' are sadly ones that don't work well to modern ears, as 2,000 years of Christianity has equated malefic with 'evil', especially in the English language. However when a French person says j'ai mal a la tete' they don't mean that they have evil thoughts or the devil is possesing their head - the mean they have a headache. The term loses many of those overtones. You might be happier with 'positive' and 'negative' or simply 'good' and 'bad' in the sense of something that works in your favour or makes you happy, compared with something that doesn't work in your favour or make you happy - something along the lines of good and bad weather.

We also have to distinguish between intrinsic nature and how that might be modified. Saturn's intrinsic nature may be to 'exclude' or 'reject', which is a rather negative approach but that can be modified. In a day chart (like yours) Saturn is not so inclinded to 'exclude' or 'reject' as simply a gut reaction. Saturn in Aquarius or Libra, or Capricorn is likely to bring a positive spin to 'exclusion' or 'rejection'. For example knowing which herbs are poisonous and therefore need to be rejected can be of great benefit when using herbal medicine (as the Greeks and Romans tended to do). So Saturn well placed can be a force for good, though this may not stop the initial impulse being to exclude or reject. Like you I have a prominent Saturn in Leo (in my first by whole sign houses and conjunct my Ascendant in a quadrant system) I often find my first impulse is to 'reject' or 'exclude' actions, but on reflection I realise that I should make the effort. It's probably harder for me because Saturn is my out of sect malefic and he's in the first house in conjunction with Mars (the malefic of sect) So don't assume that malefics must always be bad and benefics always must be good. There are times when they may well play almost the opposite role but that is case specific, rather than a general rule. Your Venus example being a good case in point.

Actually as I read through the texts Saturn there are a lot of examples of where he is positive and Venus is negative in a praticular chart or configuration. So no, it's not all black and white, despite the tendency of Hellenisitc Astrologers to use extreme examples.
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Originally Posted by Ronia View Post
OK, I stumbled here. Which house system puts Jupiter in the 3rd but Saturn in the 8th? Because I get Jupiter in the 3rd and Saturn in the 7th (Placidus) or Jupiter in the 4th and Saturn in the 8th (if I cast the natal as whole sign)... I get one of them angular all the time. Also, I noted that in whole sign Saturn is very close to the 8th cusp... Which took me back to where you counted houses from my Lot of Fortune, I counted 10 houses from the Lot to saturn if I consider him 8th house... Did you consider him 7th house or am I counting wrongly?
Thanks Ronia, you keep me on my toes Looking back over the posts I correctly identified that Saturn was 'goaded' or 'energetic' in the first few posts but when I tried to detail Schmidt's system, and used Saturn and Jupiter as an example, I inadvertently refereed to Saturn as not being 'goaded' and placed in in the eighth. That was a mistake and thank you for raising it. You are quite right Saturn is in the seventh in a quadrant system and I should have noticed that and corrected the error, when I was checking Jupiter (which is not goaded and in the third by Porphyry).

So to be clear, Saturn shows up as 'goaded' or energetic (as I originally said) and that's because it's in the seventh house of a quadrant house system (which is not what I said due to a brainstorm ).
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Universal Hermetics - the Ship of Life


The second stage of Analysis is to look at how well, or badly the planets are able to help us steer our way through life. The metaphor is that we are a ship, sailing to our destination or purpose. The metaphor clearly shows two sides of life. Firstly our ability to control what happens to us by 'steering' an appropriate course through our own actions. The second is that there is a world beyond the ship, that contains both hazards and rewards. The trouble is that these hazards and rewards are not under our control, they befall us, either as the result of someone else's actions or by the vagaries of nature.

Thus I might by a lottery ticket which wins me a million pounds, or oil might be found on my land. On the other hand I might be in a car crash and seriously injured, or catch a serious disease. How I handle those two extremes is important at another level. Even a serious injury may lead to a new and profitable dimension - simply look at the stories of many of the paralympic athletes.

This is a completely new technique to me. It looks promising in principle but the real test is going to be in applying it to several charts and see if it resonates both with the native and with their history. As it's completely new, I have no experience in it's usefulness, so please give me feedback in terms of whether it seems to fit. If it doesn't there are really two options, it either doesn't work and I'll not bother incorporating it into my practise or I'm not interpreting it correctly. The answer to those will come with trial and error.

The approach works as follows (as I currently understand it)

The ship is steered by a Helmsman - the Helm is the first house. So planets, if any, in the first may take this role. In the absence of planets in the first, steering falls to the Ascendant ruler. If the ruler is configured to the Ascendant, they can operate the helm remotely, from their place in the chart. If they are not configured then there may well be problems. The helmsman is not steering the ship so there's a danger of 'shipwreck' In which case the ship is dependent on fair winds and favourable currents - fortune. The Lord of the Ascendant is seen as the 'First Officer' of the ship in Schmidt's account of this approach.

Fortune here is represented by the Lot of Fortune. If this is configured to the Ascendant there's a chance to see what's happening with the wind and weather and at least try to take advantage. The ruler of Fortune acts as the look out at the sharp end of the ship and if configured to the Ascendant can relay messages about coming changes in the wind and weather - that is opportunities or threats in the environment may be spotted and either taken advantage of (opportunities) or avoided (threats) - this seems to fit in with a modern view of marketing and 'environmental scanning'. However if the Lord of Fortune cannot see the Lot of Fortune (in an averse house from the Lot) then opportunities or perils in life may only be spotted at the last moment, causing consequent trouble. The Lord of Fortune is seen as the Second Officer of the ship.

The the steering of the ship shows the means by which the native moves to their destination (destiny in life) but the destination itself is set by a planet Schmidt describes as the 'Political Officer' (from the Greek Oikodespotes). I don't like the term Political Officer, as politics to the Greeks was something quite different from what we mean today. It's more concerned with organising things so that we can live a fit life for a human. Now I'm sure that's what Schmidt means here but it's not how a modern mind would interpret the term. Perhaps Managing Director would be one more suitable for the modern mind and I'll use it instead, because despite the change of metaphor it's not likely to jar.

The MD is ideally the Domicile Lord of the Sect Light - so if you were born during the day and the Sun is in Virgo, your MD is Mercury. The only exceptions seem to relate to situations where the Sect Light is not in an effective place (6th, 8th, 12th or 2nd)

The MD may be assisted by a 'cooperating officer' who is usually the Bound lord of the Sun. Sometimes the Bound Lord (or ruler of the Terms of the Sect Light) and the Domicile Lord may be the same planet, in which case it plays both roles.

There now comes a section which I can understand but has some significant uncertainty about how it works in practice. In order to get to the destination as quickly and safely as possible the ship needs the wind to blow from the right place (behind the ship or a following wind). However if the wind is blowing from the wrong place the ship may find it difficult to make progress or get blown of course.

According to Schmidt the Wind is associated with the Trigons (triplicities). Indeed it seems that the Greeks associated directions with the winds that blew from them, but by later Hellenisitic times the Trigons were more associated with the elements than with winds and it's by no means clear quite what role they played. Delphic Oracle uses the placements of the Trigon Lords of the Sect Light to assess how well the wind is blowing. Here placement is relative to the horizon, that is in which houses the three Lords lie. If they are badly placed the ship has to be rowed, to make any progress. So going back to the example of the Sun in Virgo during the day. Virgo is an Earth sign and the three Trigon rulers are: Venus (by day) Moon (by night) and Mars (co-operating) Each of these three needs to be assessed to establish whether the wind is favourable or not and if not, who is going to row (it will be the co-operating Trigon Lord, so Mars will have to roll up his sleeves and man the oars). How long the ship has to be rowed depends on the position of the three Lords. Thus if Venus is angular the ship will start out well with the wind behind it but if the Moon is cadent then things will slow down and possibly drift off course, Mars will have to row for a bit. If Mars is in a succedent sign then the rest of the voyage will be reasonably on course, if not quite as fast as the first part.

The use of the three Trigon Lords to look at the three stages in life was common. The Trigon ruler of sect rules the first part of Life, the out of sect ruler takes the second part of life and the co-operating or participating ruler takes the last part.

So the next step is to apply this to Ronia
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Ronia's Ship


Ronia's Ship

I'll start by stating the obvious, Ronia is alive and well and has not reached the half way point in her life. So she's only able to comment on whether the 'ship' explains her life up to now (in terms of direction). The same is true for Ana, Spiraling and Kaliope. In Stage 4 I'll be trying my hand at forecasting, at least in part so will the forecasts fit in with the ship's course.

The Helmsman/First Officer

There are no planets in the first House so no direct helmsman. It falls to the Ruler of the Ascendant to fulfill this role. The Ascendant is in Capricorn, so that makes Saturn the First Officer, and Saturn is in the eighth. That's a succedent house so has reasonable fitness for the role but is averse to the Ascendant (no major configuration). Indeed in many ways Saturn is in reasonable condition but not really for steering. That suggests that fortune is going to play a significant role in her life

The Second Officer

The Lot of Fortune is in her tenth House (Libra) and therefore it's ruler is Venus. Both the Lot (square) and Venus (Trine) are configured to the Ascendant, so both are in a reasonable position to influence the taking of opportunities or the avoidance of perils. That being said, Venus is averse to the Lot (in a twelfth house relationship to it). So spotting those opportunities or avoiding the perils may be something of a last minute exercise. Venus competence could be taken from the PNA, she's not particularly high in fitness, or energy and she's low in completeness. In terms of maltreatment, she's the out of sect benefic, so a little unreliable, the only maltreatment indicator is that she's overcome by a malefic in a bad place (left handed sextile from Saturn in the eighth). But Saturn is not only the in-sect malefic, he's also the Ascendant ruler and the aspect is by sextile (the Venus aspect) so rather than seeing this as bad, I think Saturn is trying to inject some discipline into Venus to pull her finger out, so to speak.

The MD and his Assistant

the 'his' here is a referral to the gender of the planet in this role, the domicile ruler of the Sun - Mars. Indeed as Mercury is also the Bounds Lord of the Sun, he has a combined role as Co-operating Officer. Mars sets the destination for Ronia's life and has oversight of her Destiny. Mars scores high in fitness but below average in energy and and completeness. Mars may not be easily noticed, as an important player. On fitness the best scorers are Mars and Moon, which would suggest Moon as the Captain - what do you think of a Mars/Moon partnership with Saturn attempting the steering?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
There's a distinction here between the basic or preliminary analysis and seeing how (if at all) the planet pans out in your life. If this was simply an Introduction to modern Astrology I'd be saying something like - 'Saturn in Leo in your eighth house' and you'd be reasonably happy with that. You would still want to know how Saturn pans out buit you'd have some idea of where it is. At a more advance level I'd have picked up on it's aspects and therefore how it connects with other areas of your chart and possibly point out whether it was direct or retrograde. You'd have some idea of how it was expected to affect your life, but how it pans out would still be the clincher.

A post on position for a modern approach is quite brief because most people coming to Astrology soon pick up the idea of the signs and the houses and after a bit the aspects. But for Hellenisitic Astrology there are significant differences from modern practice. Factors are considered which many modern astrologers just would not use. That's why I've tended to labour what should be (to a Hellenistic Astrologer) a simple preliminary step. And of course it's new to me, so I'm having to try and apply a system which I'm not used to and certainly, at this stage, don't fully understand.
May be I'm too practical, I don't know. Overall, I'm trying to find out how the condition of a planet affects a person in their everyday life, if you know what I mean. Because people are dealing with everyday life, me included. But I follow the discussion with great interest and trying to get it.



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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
This is an excellent question because it really makes me think about what I have learned up to now and what I still need to find out. Firstly the conjunction of Mars and Moon is by sign only. Mars and the Moon are 'co-present', they share the same sign, but this is the weakest form of conjunction. From Medieval times, this connection fell out of use and the degree based conjunction became the criteria. As your Horizon (Ascendant/Descendant line) runs approximately through the middle of Cancer, the Moon happens to be above the horizon (is setting) whereas Mars is below the horizon (has already set). In a quadrant house system Mars would be in the sixth house.
Placidus is quadrant, right?... Which system are we supposed to use with these analyses? I was thinking whole sign or not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
The relationship to the Sun is a little bit more tricky. As I see it at the moment, the initial appraisal would be that as Moon is in Cancer and the Sun is Scorpio, the sign relationship is a trine but not one that is degree based. That's still an important point to make because the Sun and the Moon both share the properties of being in a Water sign, they have something in common. Moreover as Cancer is earlier in the zodiac than Scorpio, the Moon is making a right sided trine to Sun and is therefore in a situation where she influences the Sun (for the better).
And this would fit the reality as my core values and who I am are in general in an accordance with my emotions and how I express them. Which is why I asked about the Sun/Moon relationship. However...

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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
The applying out of sign square is more problematic. In some traditional astrological practices it just would not be recognised as they would see the square ending at a sign boundary. In modern Astrology the trine would probably be ignored and the square would be what is considered. Now it does appear that Hellenistic Astrologers let their degre base aspects cross sign boundaries (usually to a tight orb of 3 degrees) but I'm really not sure what they would conclude in this particular case. It's something I'll have to research. There's an additional point in that for the 'energy test' of application, the Moon is allowed an orb of 13 degrees and I'm not sure if that orb would be allowed for simply appraising the configuration here. If it is only confined to 3 degrees the square would lapse. Delphic Oracle is showing the aspect as a trine.
... I think the square does play out too. And I've felt it, still feel it from time to time but with aging I started to deal with it better. Me as an individuality against me as a shared person, someone who is a giver. So, for the sake of the analysis, it looks like they are both true to a certain extend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
The terms 'benefic' and 'malefic' are sadly ones that don't work well to modern ears, as 2,000 years of Christianity has equated malefic with 'evil', especially in the English language. However when a French person says j'ai mal a la tete' they don't mean that they have evil thoughts or the devil is possesing their head - the mean they have a headache. The term loses many of those overtones. You might be happier with 'positive' and 'negative' or simply 'good' and 'bad' in the sense of something that works in your favour or makes you happy, compared with something that doesn't work in your favour or make you happy - something along the lines of good and bad weather.
I don't really pay much attention to terms like these as I try to assess the planet based on aspects mostly as I didn't know any of these instruments you use here. I just pointed out that a "malefic" and "benefic" are very shaky terms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
We also have to distinguish between intrinsic nature and how that might be modified. Saturn's intrinsic nature may be to 'exclude' or 'reject', which is a rather negative approach but that can be modified. In a day chart (like yours) Saturn is not so inclinded to 'exclude' or 'reject' as simply a gut reaction. Saturn in Aquarius or Libra, or Capricorn is likely to bring a positive spin to 'exclusion' or 'rejection'. For example knowing which herbs are poisonous and therefore need to be rejected can be of great benefit when using herbal medicine (as the Greeks and Romans tended to do). So Saturn well placed can be a force for good, though this may not stop the initial impulse being to exclude or reject. Like you I have a prominent Saturn in Leo (in my first by whole sign houses and conjunct my Ascendant in a quadrant system) I often find my first impulse is to 'reject' or 'exclude' actions, but on reflection I realise that I should make the effort. It's probably harder for me because Saturn is my out of sect malefic and he's in the first house in conjunction with Mars (the malefic of sect) So don't assume that malefics must always be bad and benefics always must be good. There are times when they may well play almost the opposite role but that is case specific, rather than a general rule. Your Venus example being a good case in point.
Yes, that's precisely what I meant. Though I do not exclude or reject easily. In fact, I am a very patient person, surprisingly so. I give many chances before I reject. Apparently your Saturn in the 1st and conjunct Mars plays out more harshly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Actually as I read through the texts Saturn there are a lot of examples of where he is positive and Venus is negative in a praticular chart or configuration. So no, it's not all black and white, despite the tendency of Hellenisitc Astrologers to use extreme examples.
Yes, it's not black or white. Jupiter is also a very tricky player and I've seen him as far from the big benefic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Thanks Ronia, you keep me on my toes Looking back over the posts I correctly identified that Saturn was 'goaded' or 'energetic' in the first few posts but when I tried to detail Schmidt's system, and used Saturn and Jupiter as an example, I inadvertently refereed to Saturn as not being 'goaded' and placed in in the eighth. That was a mistake and thank you for raising it. You are quite right Saturn is in the seventh in a quadrant system and I should have noticed that and corrected the error, when I was checking Jupiter (which is not goaded and in the third by Porphyry).

So to be clear, Saturn shows up as 'goaded' or energetic (as I originally said) and that's because it's in the seventh house of a quadrant house system (which is not what I said due to a brainstorm ).
Sorry for all the pointing here and there, just trying to get a grasp of all this! I'm still willing to know which system we're using here - Placidus, whole signs or other? So I know how to treat Jupiter and Saturn, angular or not. In the beginning it looked to me you were using whole signs but if we take Saturn as 7th house, that would be Placidus?
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Ronia's Ship

I'll start by stating the obvious, Ronia is alive and well and has not reached the half way point in her life. So she's only able to comment on whether the 'ship' explains her life up to now (in terms of direction).
Yeah, still moving. LOL

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The Helmsman/First Officer

There are no planets in the first House so no direct helmsman. It falls to the Ruler of the Ascendant to fulfill this role. The Ascendant is in Capricorn, so that makes Saturn the First Officer, and Saturn is in the eighth. That's a succedent house so has reasonable fitness for the role but is averse to the Ascendant (no major configuration). Indeed in many ways Saturn is in reasonable condition but not really for steering. That suggests that fortune is going to play a significant role in her life
So, we're using whole signs here. Saturn gives the scepter to fortune, right? And what's the role of the Asc ruler then?

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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
The Second Officer

The Lot of Fortune is in her tenth House (Libra) and therefore it's ruler is Venus. Both the Lot (square) and Venus (Trine) are configured to the Ascendant, so both are in a reasonable position to influence the taking of opportunities or the avoidance of perils. That being said, Venus is averse to the Lot (in a twelfth house relationship to it). So spotting those opportunities or avoiding the perils may be something of a last minute exercise.
I'm not sure about this... If I look back at my childhood and all the accidents I had and nearly died a few times, it could be true... although I was at the hospital and treated, it's not like I've either avoided them or missed the treatment... Don't know what to say about the last minute part. On the other hand, I can't see it like this now as an adult. Overall, I do plan my steps ahead, I sometimes have strategies for the next few years, I wait and when the moment comes, I know it and just jump. I'm not just floating around waiting for something to fall on my head. LOL

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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Venus competence could be taken from the PNA, she's not particularly high in fitness, or energy and she's low in completeness. In terms of maltreatment, she's the out of sect benefic, so a little unreliable, the only maltreatment indicator is that she's overcome by a malefic in a bad place (left handed sextile from Saturn in the eighth). But Saturn is not only the in-sect malefic, he's also the Ascendant ruler and the aspect is by sextile (the Venus aspect) so rather than seeing this as bad, I think Saturn is trying to inject some discipline into Venus to pull her finger out, so to speak.
I don't understand this. She's not in a good condition, this I get. Undisciplined... Why? Do we take Venus here as a general ruler of the wealth, good life and love (as traditionally seen) or do we consider her house rulership? If it's the former, then I think she does a good job overall, especially considering I have not had any stable financial background. I'm managing somehow, even in times like the past few years which is a compliment for Venus actually. On the other hand, as it all comes to other people's money and resources, if I take Saturn in the 8th, amy be hes' the provider.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
The MD and his Assistant

the 'his' here is a referral to the gender of the planet in this role, the domicile ruler of the Sun - Mars. Indeed as Mercury is also the Bounds Lord of the Sun, he has a combined role as Co-operating Officer.
Don't get this either. Too many officers on this ship. LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Mars sets the destination for Ronia's life and has oversight of her Destiny. Mars scores high in fitness but below average in energy and and completeness. Mars may not be easily noticed, as an important player. On fitness the best scorers are Mars and Moon, which would suggest Moon as the Captain - what do you think of a Mars/Moon partnership with Saturn attempting the steering?
And too many captains. I can't really say anything here, I'm lost again. Moon and Mars? I already wrote that Mars is one of the planets in my chart I hardly feel. Only the Asc transits play out really, minor cuts and such things... He did play a role, I believe, in the birth of my son but Jupiter was on the Ascendant. I've noticed Mars needs support to perform. Another planet, preferably heavier, aspecting the same natal as he is or a point of the chart which is sensitive and rtelated to the issue at hand (as it was with the birth). If you're talking about those longer periods and Time Lords, than may be he's a player. Moon+Mars just doesn't make sense to me right now, I don't understand how the Moon ended as a captain too. What happened to the Sun meanwhile? I'm confused, sorry. I don't get why Saturn will do the steering but Moon and Mars will be captains. By the way, if Saturn does guide the ship, what do the captains do then? Looks to me like we can basically take any planet from the chart if the assessment of the previous doesn't suit us. Like Lot of Fortune, then Venus, then Mercury came into play (why?), then Sun, then Mars, then Moon... I'm lost.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia View Post

Placidus is quadrant, right?... Which system are we supposed to use with these analyses? I was thinking whole sign or not?
Yes Placidus is a quadrant house system and I think it's the one that's most used in Atrology these days - the default if you like. The Hellenistic situation is slightly more complcated. They used both whole sign and quadrant houses. In the early part of the period quadrant houses were used for only one specific area - the length of life calculation. For everything else they used whole sign houses. This changed a bit over a period of 500 years or so. By the end of the period they were using both together for certain topic areas. So for example The Astronomic MC (the tenth cusp in a Placidus chart) would be combined with the tenth in a whole sign chart. Thus if the MC fell in the ninth house they might have predicted a career abroad or in the law but if it fell in the elventh house they may have predicted a career looking after the king's money (second from the tenth), or being a royal adviser.

The reason why quadrant houses have shown up at this stage is that the PNA would also feed into the length of life calculation, which in turn would allow some estimate of the time periods alloted to each of the Trigon Lords in the 'Ship' example. The Hellenisitic Astrologers used porphyry houses, most Placidus is a seventeenth century system, so would not have been used by these Astrologers.

When we get to Stages 3 & 4 I'll only be using whole sign houses because that would have been what they used during most of the Hellenistic period.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
And this would fit the reality as my core values and who I am are in general in an accordance with my emotions and how I express them. Which is why I asked about the Sun/Moon relationship. However..... I think the square does play out too. And I've felt it, still feel it from time to time but with aging I started to deal with it better. Me as an individuality against me as a shared person, someone who is a giver. So, for the sake of the analysis, it looks like they are both true to a certain extend.
This situation is something I need to research from the Hellenistic point of view. It would be very interesting to see how they resolved it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnia
I don't really pay much attention to terms like these as I try to assess the planet based on aspects mostly as I didn't know any of these instruments you use here. I just pointed out that a "malefic" and "benefic" are very shaky terms.
It's not so much that they are shaky as that the planets are not'automatons ' They don't always behave in a completely consistent manner delivering a completly consistent 'product'. Their core might remain the same but their expression can and is modified by circumsances (as shown in the chart)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
Yes, that's precisely what I meant. Though I do not exclude or reject easily. In fact, I am a very patient person, surprisingly so. I give many chances before I reject. Apparently your Saturn in the 1st and conjunct Mars plays out more harshly.
Actually I'm a very giving and a very patient person (which is something we share so it must relate back to that Saturn in Leo placement) it's just that instinctively my first move is 'backwards' rather than 'forwards' - I think it's an instinctive reaction (Saturn is in close opposition to my Moon, which he rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
Sorry for all the pointing here and there, just trying to get a grasp of all this! I'm still willing to know which system we're using here - Placidus, whole signs or other? So I know how to treat Jupiter and Saturn, angular or not. In the beginning it looked to me you were using whole signs but if we take Saturn as 7th house, that would be Placidus?
Don't be sorry, your helping - by making me answre these questions I'm forced to consider things from a Hellenisitic point of view - please carry on, I find your observations both interesting in their own right and helpful.

To conclude on the Houses.

We will almost exclusively use whole sign houses - these are the every day system that Astrologers used to answer questions on the topical areas of life or the base for making forecasts. The only time quadrant houses will come up is in the PNA, so after that they get left behind and even in the PNA they are only a small input.

BTW I don't intend to go into the length of life calculation or a discussion on it. My view based on my own birth and subsequent life (and the lives of friends and relatives) is that modern medicine can render the calculation of little practical value.
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Originally Posted by Ronia View Post
Yeah, still moving. LOL

.....So, we're using whole signs here.
Yes...this post and my last one crossed, Whole sign houses for everything but the length of life calculation. And that's not something I intend to cover.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpnia
Saturn gives the scepter to fortune, right? And what's the role of the Asc ruler then?
I think that the analysis suggests that you need fortune to get through life without too many problems. Saturn is still trying to steer the ship but he's having to do it from a difficult position where he can't see clearly. He's doing his best but he needs some help to spot the opportunities or avoid the perils, and that's where Venus should assist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia

I'm not sure about this... If I look back at my childhood and all the accidents I had and nearly died a few times, it could be true... although I was at the hospital and treated, it's not like I've either avoided them or missed the treatment... Don't know what to say about the last minute part. On the other hand, I can't see it like this now as an adult. Overall, I do plan my steps ahead, I sometimes have strategies for the next few years, I wait and when the moment comes, I know it and just jump. I'm not just floating around waiting for something to fall on my head. LOL
Well as a child you don't think of the future consequences of your actions as a regular part of your decisions' The hospital treatment is in a sense beside the point as the accident has already happened, fortune has struck

On your adult experience, I think we learn from our experiences, and your strategies are very much designed to minimizs the need to depend on Fortune. I'm not sure Hellenistic Astrology allows for that adaption process, it seems to assume that you won't adapt your behaviour in the light of past experiences. Mind you I know some people who don't adapt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
I don't understand this. She's not in a good condition, this I get. Undisciplined... Why? Do we take Venus here as a general ruler of the wealth, good life and love (as traditionally seen) or do we consider her house rulership? If it's the former, then I think she does a good job overall, especially considering I have not had any stable financial background. I'm managing somehow, even in times like the past few years which is a compliment for Venus actually. On the other hand, as it all comes to other people's money and resources, if I take Saturn in the 8th, amy be hes' the provider.
No we're just considering Venus as ruler of the Lot of Fortune' the planet that should help you devise strategies to maximise opportunity and avoid peril. She's not well placed for that role. Oddly Saturn does sextile the Lot of Fortune, and Saturn is very much the planet of ldiscipline, ong term planning, analysing and patience...all the qualities that you have cited. There's no link between Venus and Saturn by configuration which would be a good indicator of those qualities coming into play in the opportunities and perils anticipation. However some way or other that sextile with the Lot, seems to inject those qualities into your life.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
Don't get this either. Too many officers on this ship. LOL
Mars is a masculine planet which is why I used the masculine pronoun but I also typed Mercury when I meant Mars as the Bound Lord, I admit that' was confusing So again for the record Mars is Domicile Lord of the Sun and therefore the Oikodespotes (Managing Director) and Mars is also the Bound Lord of the Sun. As to to many officers, yes I agree ....especially with a crew of 7 LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
And too many captains. I can't really say anything here, I'm lost again. Moon and Mars? I already wrote that Mars is one of the planets in my chart I hardly feel. Only the Asc transits play out really, minor cuts and such things... He did play a role, I believe, in the birth of my son but Jupiter was on the Ascendant. I've noticed Mars needs support to perform. Another planet, preferably heavier, aspecting the same natal as he is or a point of the chart which is sensitive and rtelated to the issue at hand (as it was with the birth). If you're talking about those longer periods and Time Lords, than may be he's a player.
The Hellenistic view is that life is a struggle between fortune, what befalls you and your attempts to influence the world around you - Spirit. You've had two significant Mars periods in your life to date

In terms of your own attempts to influence the world around you (Spirit), you had a Mars period from birth through to August 1990.

In terms of things that befall you or health issues (fortune) you had a Mars period from September 1983 through to June 1998. There's an overlap of about 6 years there. What were the flavour those six years.?

For the last 8 years of your Mars (fortune) period, you were in a Venus (spirit) period. Was that 8 years better than the preceding six years?

From 1998 to 2008 you had a Jupiter period in terms of fortune, or what befell you. That

From 2018 (5 years away) you will ente a 25 year Lunar period in terms of Spirit.

Hellenistic Astrology does the 'heavy' but through recurring time periods. Each of the periods I mentioned above will have sub periods where there may be shifts of emphasis, and periods where Mars is actually to the fore, or for that matter Venus or Jupiter - they might not always show up as transits but they set the tone. Or so those Astrologers believed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnia
Moon+Mars just doesn't make sense to me right now, I don't understand how the Moon ended as a captain too. What happened to the Sun meanwhile? I'm confused, sorry. I don't get why Saturn will do the steering but Moon and Mars will be captains. By the way, if Saturn does guide the ship, what do the captains do then? Looks to me like we can basically take any planet from the chart if the assessment of the previous doesn't suit us. Like Lot of Fortune, then Venus, then Mercury came into play (why?), then Sun, then Mars, then Moon... I'm lost.
I must admit I rushed that part, taking the list from Delphic Oracle, The crux of the matter is that the 'ruler of the chart' doesn't have to be the 'ruler of the Ascendant' and indeed right the way through the traditional period there were attempts to identify the 'Almuten of the Chart' or the ' Lord of the Geniture' - the planet that will be the most powerful or influential. The ruler of the Ascendant is not debarred from being the strongest planet but it's by no means guaranteed.

Now I put a question mark after the Mars/Moon pairing because I wanted your view on that pairing. Mars/Saturn might have been a possible pairing too. especially as you are now in a Saturn 'fortune' period through to 2027. Choosing the strongest planet is not a simple matter of calculation, or at least a universally accepted method. It's easy to identify the Ascendant ruler, it's not so easy to identify the strongest panet because you have to answer the question 'strongest in what respect?' and why have certain reference points been chose or prioritiesed and others downpalyed or ignored. It's something that will always cause debate and disagreement.
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