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Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
In case of the Qlippoth do they not just mean demons and shells? So all these geniis, sephiroth and even planets have Qlippotic negative shadowy forces. So Obviously these 22 Qlippotic geniis from Liber 231 are different ones from the TOL ones?
I am not sure... they appear to be different spirits and have different names. ( both are related to the TOL though).

Liber 231 describes the 44 seals with the heading 'THE GENII OF THE 22 SCALES OF THE SERPENT AND OF THE QLIPHOTH'.

This suggests the 22 paths which relate to the 22 trumps. (I wonder too if could be read as 22 scales incorporating both sets of seals, as an aspect of each other) The 44 seals are shown on Duquette's Trump cards.

In Liber 777 there is reference to the order of the Qlipoth with the 10 Sephira having their adverse attributions, ie Thaumiel for Kether, the twin god which represents duality,separation instead of the Unity. From what I understand vaguely, this is related to the qliphotic shells idea, the cast off containers of the light that are still rumbling around.

However, Duquette also describes the spirits of the qliphoth connected to the 22 trump paths as having the abode of the 'prison' of shells... and 'prison' of the qlipoth (p18) so there seems an overlap....
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Crowley advises in his Book of Thoth, try not to worry too much about all the spirits attributed to each cards, but pick out, and study the ones that look related to your interest for the situations.
I think (if it is the same bit you are looking at ) he also mentioned something along the lines of needing to know who they all are if you wish to communicate with them for some purpose.. He does mention the Angels of the Shemhamphorash though with Tarot.

It is easy to get bogged down... I have just been on the beach, sun worshipping, it is lovely and hot, sea was very cold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
I am not sure... they appear to be different spirits and have different names. ( both are related to the TOL though).

Liber 231 describes the 44 seals with the heading 'THE GENII OF THE 22 SCALES OF THE SERPENT AND OF THE QLIPHOTH'.

This suggests the 22 paths which relate to the 22 trumps. (I wonder too if could be read as 22 scales incorporating both sets of seals, as an aspect of each other) The 44 seals are shown on Duquette's Trump cards.

In Liber 777 there is reference to the order of the Qlipoth with the 10 Sephira having their adverse attributions, ie Thaumiel for Kether, the twin god which represents duality,separation instead of the Unity. From what I understand vaguely, this is related to the qliphotic shells idea, the cast off containers of the light that are still rumbling around.

However, Duquette also describes the spirits of the qliphoth connected to the 22 trump paths as having the abode of the 'prison' of shells... and 'prison' of the qlipoth (p18) so there seems an overlap....
I used to wonder, if the L231 spirits are actually just 22 of them, but they would have 22 guardians each (mercurial and qlippothic) making 44. One set is what DuQuette classifies as Mercurial and the other Qlippothic, and the Sigils are for the guardians not for the sprits themselves.

The sigils are not the spirits. They are just drawings depicting the spirits, or they could be for the guardians? I mean Crowley could have created another set of 22 sigils for the spirits under the name of Jupiterian House of the genii.

The thing is that, there are the names of the spirits like Amprodius for The Fool. It is just one name for one spirit. What DuQuette calls mercurial house of genii, it is, according to David Godwin, Coptic form of the spirit name. Not name for another spirit. This part is kinda confusing for me. I was thinking someone has made mistake, either DuQuette or Godwin, or could it be my misunderstanding? Who or what could it be?

Qlippoth are just shadows of each sephiroth, planets and the trumps. They don't exist by themselves as such? For example Malkuth, its shadow and negative shell is the Lilith. Without Malkuth, there is no Lilith, because it is the shadowy aspect?

Interesting point in your note that those L231 spirits overlapping on the TOL pathes of the trumps. Can they mapped into the TOL according to the traditional pathes of the trumps?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
I think (if it is the same bit you are looking at ) he also mentioned something along the lines of needing to know who they all are if you wish to communicate with them for some purpose.. He does mention the Angels of the Shemhamphorash though with Tarot.

It is easy to get bogged down... I have just been on the beach, sun worshipping, it is lovely and hot, sea was very cold
I think it was on pp.44 of BOT.

Cool on your sun worshipping session this afternoon. The weather has been marvelous up here too past few days. This place is a paradise when weather is right.

They say it will all change next week according to the forecast (prediction). Wondered if tarot could be used for the weather prediction.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
I think (if it is the same bit you are looking at ) he also mentioned something along the lines of needing to know who they all are if you wish to communicate with them for some purpose.. He does mention the Angels of the Shemhamphorash though with Tarot.

It is easy to get bogged down... I have just been on the beach, sun worshipping, it is lovely and hot, sea was very cold
I wouldn't call it being bogged down exactly. One has to remember the context and background of what the symbols means and how they were used.

Although the Book of Thoth is for the general public, not all of it is actually useful except in an initiatory setting or if someone has an interest in carrying out the Great Work. Liber Arcanorum is a different kettle of fish and is only for magicians. The process of becoming one is quite long and has a learning curve like anything else. If we take the example of the sigils assigned to the paths people probably dealt with them as they progressed up the Tree, going by the logic of crossing a bridge when they came to it. If you're at Malkuth it may not make sense to deal with spirits you can't yet do anything with.

This doesn't mean that a great part of the ToCM is unusable for the most part, only that like with anything else, learning takes time. In a setting such as we have here, going about understanding the sigils in a theoretical fashion using them to understand the cards, rather than the other way round, it may very well be that the context is missing.

I have Duquette's Magick of Thelema at home, I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread. Tomorrow I will check if it has anything about them.
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Currently I am seeing the L231 sprits as a single spirit attributed to each major cards.

They are spirits but can also be energies, forces, aspects or qualities of the each cards, which are hidden underground, but tend to manifest into the reading when evoked by the reader or magician via rituals.

It will have either positive or negative aspects for the card in the readings depending on how they are dignified and also on the questions asked.

When they are positive and bright, they are on Mercurial side, hence manifests as a Mercurial genii. They are helpful, warm and even divine like its description in L231 of Amprodius, it resides in A of IAO.

When they are negative and dark, they are Qlippothic, they tend to be nasty, and even devouring like the Amprodius sigil, hence needed to be locked up in the prision by the genii, be it all implied symbolically.

Every entities in universe changes constantly, be it weather, situation, partner, friend, sephiroth or spirit .... Etc etc. For example, when a couple is in love, they are the most loving beautiful angels to each other, but times passes, and if they fall out, they turn to demonic existence to each other. We read about these stories on the media all the time. They are the same people who changed their aspects due to circumstances, and turned unto Qlippotic from Mercurial state.

Tarot cards know all about these, especially if assisted by the spirit. These spirits look like good guys to have them around, be it mercurial or qlippotic, hence PHB says, they are all friendly stuff in the end, and he enjoyed having them near him.

When DuQuette said the Mercurial and Qlippotic genii represent the whole spectrum of each card (pp.18), perhaps that's what he meant?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
I used to wonder, if the L231 spirits are actually just 22 of them, but they would have 22 guardians each (mercurial and qlippothic) making 44. One set is what DuQuette classifies as Mercurial and the other Qlippothic, and the Sigils are for the guardians not for the sprits themselves.

The sigils are not the spirits. They are just drawings depicting the spirits, or they could be for the guardians? I mean Crowley could have created another set of 22 sigils for the spirits under the name of Jupiterian House of the genii.

The thing is that, there are the names of the spirits like Amprodius for The Fool. It is just one name for one spirit. What DuQuette calls mercurial house of genii, it is, according to David Godwin, Coptic form of the spirit name. Not name for another spirit. This part is kinda confusing for me. I was thinking someone has made mistake, either DuQuette or Godwin, or could it be my misunderstanding? Who or what could it be?

Qlippoth are just shadows of each sephiroth, planets and the trumps. They don't exist by themselves as such? For example Malkuth, its shadow and negative shell is the Lilith. Without Malkuth, there is no Lilith, because it is the shadowy aspect?

Interesting point in your note that those L231 spirits overlapping on the TOL pathes of the trumps. Can they mapped into the TOL according to the traditional pathes of the trumps?
I hope you didn't think that when I said about being bogged down, I was referring to you. I was talking about myself, so fortunately I went to the beach.

Some interesting questions you have raised here, unfortunately I don't know enough about it.
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Good explanation foolMoon, thank you.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephyros View Post
. This doesn't mean that a great part of the ToCM is unusable for the most part, only that like with anything else, learning takes time. In a setting such as we have here, going about understanding the sigils in a theoretical fashion using them to understand the cards, rather than the other way round, it may very well be that the context is missing.
the thing is though, unfortunately there is very little on the cards, no description of images and only brief divinatory meanings. The bulk of the book does just seem to be background stuff and referenced attributions with their sigils or images on the relevant cards.
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True. Even a brief description of the images would've been helpful. The majors at least seem to have some connection with Crowley, his writings or his life. A person versed in Crowley can probably see a lot that others can't.
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