The Devil-Thoth

Barleywine

Aeon418 said:
That's one reason why the name is perfect and should be left alone. So long as you're 'chained' to the old idea of the Devil he remains the Dweller on the Threshold and the scapegoat onto which fears and anxieties are projected.

Yes, the Devil is the perfect philosophical "sponge" for transfer of blame for one's own moral failings: "The Devil made me do it!" Crowley's Devil would probably find such sniveling cowardice beneath contempt, but the fact that his provenance stretches from the lowest to the highest suggests that, ultimately, it would be "no skin of his nose." It's all part of "the complete appreciation of all existing things." Human delusion doesn't originate in any act of the Devil's, it's something we (often willingly) do to ourselves and then pin it on him, and I suspect it has been that way since the Christian priesthood first demonized Pan for their own self-serving purposes.

Zephyros

The idea is actually older than Pan. The scapegoat was literally a goat, in the Old Testament, symbolically laden with the tribe's sins and cast out, the שעיר לעזאזל.

Myself, I see the Devil in its sexual context of the Lord of the Gates of Matter that begets a "child of pure innocence." Certainly there is no discipline in the throes of passion (when done right). The entire "neighborhood" of the Devil and its surrounding letters suggest quite strongly the stages of the sexual act and subsequent consummation of the alchemical marriage. This whole area on the Tree of Life is like its "bedchamber," where it all happens. If one's philosophy dictates that all that is material is bad then it would make sense that being chained to material existence would be a product of sin, but this Devil I see as merely a fulfillment of our being.

It should also be kept in mind that this card was drawn in the context of a reading. Hispet, when you asked about "feelings," what kind are we talking about?

ravenest

Zephyros said:
I agree, I couldn't have said it better myself. I wonder, though, why didn't Crowley change the name of this card as he did with others? This is clearly not the old Aeon Devil and it isn't even the rather modified Golden Dawn variation on the idea. The very name stirs up wrong ideas, it is antithetical to its essence.

Yes, well, knowing a bit about Crowley's character, I am surprised he didnt name it

'Our Lord , Satan ' .

ravenest

Zephyros said:
The idea is actually older than Pan. The scapegoat was literally a goat, in the Old Testament, symbolically laden with the tribe's sins and cast out, the שעיר לעזאזל.

Myself, I see the Devil in its sexual context of the Lord of the Gates of Matter that begets a "child of pure innocence." Certainly there is no discipline in the throes of passion (when done right). The entire "neighborhood" of the Devil and its surrounding letters suggest quite strongly the stages of the sexual act and subsequent consummation of the alchemical marriage. This whole area on the Tree of Life is like its "bedchamber," where it all happens. If one's philosophy dictates that all that is material is bad then it would make sense that being chained to material existence would be a product of sin, but this Devil I see as merely a fulfillment of our being.

It should also be kept in mind that this card was drawn in the context of a reading. Hispet, when you asked about "feelings," what kind are we talking about?

You 'need' to spend more time in UTC ... its virtually a catch phrase nowadays .

" What do you make of the ... .. ..... when asking about feelings? "

Zephyros

ravenest said:
You 'need' to spend more time in UTC ... its virtually a catch phrase nowadays .

" What do you make of the ... .. ..... when asking about feelings? "

Well, according to my own understanding of Thelema all acts are spiritual and ecstatic, thus having sex is as joyous an activity as making a sandwich. At least, if the sandwich you're making is your Will.

But still, when we're talking about a reading then the context is important. My own feelings about politics are not those I feel towards my cat. Since the OP asked help in interpretation of a reading then, well, there it is, isn't it.

foolMoon

smw said:
Hi Hispet

I don't really see the Thoth Devil being about control or manipulation. I might think about a possible lack of discipline and even recklessness with the highly creative and sexual energies of the card. As it does not indicate to me consideration of outcomes or consequences, (it is what it is) that might suggest relationship(s) concerns are not going to be a priority.

Eta... I wonder if thoughts of control might relate to the dynamic (or potential one) of a relationship. Snuffin comments on the Devil card that "It symbolises the sexual attraction and arousal that 'compels' us to form relationships and procreate"

A great post. I agree with your and Snuffin's view on the Thoth Devil card.

Barleywine

Zephyros said:
The idea is actually older than Pan. The scapegoat was literally a goat, in the Old Testament, symbolically laden with the tribe's sins and cast out, the שעיר לעזאזל.

If one's philosophy dictates that all that is material is bad then it would make sense that being chained to material existence would be a product of sin, but this Devil I see as merely a fulfillment of our being.

Yes, I've heard the origin of the term "scapegoat" before. I was taliking more about the common visual representation of the horned-and-hoofed Devil, and the "goat" association.

"Fulfillment" is a good way to look at it. I would be inclined to tell a querent that the Devil is highly charged for any activity requiring the application of intense physical energy in a creatively constructive way - Saturn and Mars in harness - toward a material end, completely dodging all of the moral and religious implications. That would place sexual activity in a larger context.

Snaut

Zephyros said:
The entire "neighborhood" of the Devil and its surrounding letters suggest quite strongly the stages of the sexual act and subsequent consummation of the alchemical marriage. This whole area on the Tree of Life is like its "bedchamber," where it all happens.

I can't quite follow you here. Care to elaborate?

Maybe this part of the wake world also helps in understanding

The wake world said:
But in the first we came to a mighty throne of grey granite, shaped like the
sweetest pussy cat you ever saw, and set up on a desolate heath. It was
midnight and the Devil came down and sat in the midst; but my Fairy Prince
whispered: “Hush! it is a great secret, but his name is Yeheswah, and he is the
Saviour of the World.” And that was very funny, because the girl next to me
thought it was Jesus Christ, till another Fairy Prince (my Prince’s brother)
whispered as he kissed her: “Hush, tell nobody ever, that is Satan, and he is
the Saviour of the World.”
We were a very great company, and I can’t tell you all of the strange things
we did and said, or of the song we sang as we danced face outwards in a great
circle ever closing in on the Devil on the throne. But whenever I saw a toad or
a bat, or some horrid insect, my Fairy Prince always whispered: “It is the
Saviour of the world,” and I saw that it was so. We did all the most beautiful
wicked things you can imagine, and yet all the time we knew that they were
good and right, and must be done if ever we were to get to the House of Gold.
So we enjoyed ourselves very much and ate the most extraordinary supper you
can think of. There were babies roasted whole and stuffed with pork sausages
and olives; and some of the girls cut off chops and steaks from their own
bodies, and gave them to a beautiful white cook at a silver grill, that was
lighted with the gas of dead bodies and marshes; and he cooked them
splendidly, and we all enjoyed it immensely. Then there was a tame goat with
a gold collar, that went about laughing with every one; and he was all shaved
in patches like a poodle. We kissed him and petted him, and it was lovely.
You must remember that I never let go of my Fairy Prince for a single instant,
or of course I should have been turned into a horrid black toad.

smw

Barleywine said:
"Fulfillment" is a good way to look at it. I would be inclined to tell a querent that the Devil is highly charged for any activity requiring the application of intense physical energy in a creatively constructive way - Saturn and Mars in harness - toward a material end, completely dodging all of the moral and religious implications. That would place sexual activity in a larger context.

Fulfillment seems quite a serene word though. I can't help seeing the words in the BOT, " fiery material of creation.." Exquisitely tenuous,complex and fantastic forms of madness, divine madness of spring..madness of winter..."

Barleywine

smw said:
Fulfillment seems quite a serene word though. I can't help seeing the words in the BOT, " fiery material of creation.." Exquisitely tenuous,complex and fantastic forms of madness, divine madness of spring..madness of winter..."

Somehow, I can't quite see the forms of "madness" that Crowley proposes as being in any way perverse. They seem more like an inevitable product of the changing seasons as they act upon the human psyche. More a form of euphoric "transport" than dysfunction. The Coleridge poem Kubla Khan always reminds me of that form of "madness."

The Devil-Thoth

Barleywine

Zephyros

ravenest

ravenest

Zephyros

foolMoon

Barleywine

Snaut

smw

Barleywine