SixDegrees
No offense, but I would NOT recommend this book to anyone. Nothing has been more confusing in my own studies of Lenormand than this.
Until a really good book gets published in English, greatdane, I'd stick to the aforementioned websites.
Newbie's questions to lenormand readers
No offense, but I would NOT recommend this book to anyone. Nothing has been more confusing in my own studies of Lenormand than this.
Until a really good book gets published in English, greatdane, I'd stick to the aforementioned websites.
kalliope
I agree that Learning Lenormand would confuse you rather than help you, especially if you're hoping to learn the Lenormand method we've all been talking about, as practiced in its folk tradition. Many of the included exercises would easily lead you off on tangents instead of giving you a strong working knowledge base.
greatdane
*raising hand*...question please!
ok when we're talking about a certain method, is that like, say for example, what donna leigh uses vs what someone else uses? I would like it to be as simple as possible so if someone said ok this site, this book, this class is the fairly standard french or venusian or whatever method, I can then grasp that
. I want to start by learning a method which is one of the reasons I'm drawn to lenormand, there are pretty standard ways of seeing cards, but I know there are different standards or systems. So...are we talking the french or is there another term for what most peeps here are describing? I just want to, literally, be on the same page, my dear AT peeps!
ok when we're talking about a certain method, is that like, say for example, what donna leigh uses vs what someone else uses? I would like it to be as simple as possible so if someone said ok this site, this book, this class is the fairly standard french or venusian or whatever method, I can then grasp that
. I want to start by learning a method which is one of the reasons I'm drawn to lenormand, there are pretty standard ways of seeing cards, but I know there are different standards or systems. So...are we talking the french or is there another term for what most peeps here are describing? I just want to, literally, be on the same page, my dear AT peeps!Richard
That is the same question that Tarotlyn and I had in another thread. The conclusion was the usual evasive and wishy-washy politically correct one that all of the different systems have more similarities than differences. (Let's make love, not war.
) The major divide is between the system people and the non-system heretics. Adopt either the French or German tradition and you'll be on the "right" side. It seems impossible to pin anyone down as to what system is more popular or more correct. However, there is general agreement that taking one's own individualistic approach is more-or-less (profound wishy-washiness ) wrong. ETA. The effect of that discussion was to make me feel as if I am neither on the right or the wrong side, but rather on the outside. So be it. May you fare better, GD.
kalliope
I don't think it's actually that wishy-washy! It's just that in honest truth, the various traditional schools are on a continuum rather than opposite sides of a coin. Think of them as interrelated folk traditions instead. LRichard was quite right that the actual "divide" isn't between French & German, but rather between "system people and non-system people." (The non-system people are the "modern-intuitive" readers we've mentioned before, and the system people believe there's a core language to learn and symbol manipulation skills to build before one can read the Lenormand in its special way.)
But if you're still interested in telling the difference between the French and German schools:
****************************************
Most everyone we've been recommending is more German than French in their school. If you learn from Andy, Chanah, or Lord Elwin (LearnLenormand), or Iris Treppner's course, you will be solidly within the German tradition.
Did you take a look at the first link in my post? I'll try to summarize what Andy says (any mistakes are my own misunderstandings):
--the German method is the most common, and that means people use card-by-card combinations to read. Card X + Card Y + Card Z = Interpretation(s)
--He also describes how there are Dutch & Belgium variations of the "German School". They are all more similar than they are different.
--The meanings listed on Andy's, Chanah's, or Lord Elwin's websites are German.
--The French method (in Europe at least) is apparently to use the distance that cards fall from each to make interpretations rather than combinations.
--HOWEVER, from what I've seen online, most English-speaking people who SAY they are using the French Method are actually reading combinations (German-style) but with French card meanings (Sylvie Steinbech students excepted)
--From what I can tell, Donnaleigh is like this: she uses French meanings but combines cards.
--The French meanings can be found at Madame Seaqueen's site. Helen's meanings list a little of both.
--Sylvie Steinbech's book and her online course are based in the French method, but she's also kind of created her own twist on it. She reads with less emphasis on combinations and does use distance, and her only layout is the "No Layout" spread.
Does that help you categorize people any better?
If you combine cards systematically with either the German or French meanings, you'll be fine, and you'll be "reading Lenormand." Pick someone's list of meanings from our suggested websites (or get a course), and forge ahead.
But if you're still interested in telling the difference between the French and German schools:
****************************************
Most everyone we've been recommending is more German than French in their school. If you learn from Andy, Chanah, or Lord Elwin (LearnLenormand), or Iris Treppner's course, you will be solidly within the German tradition.
Did you take a look at the first link in my post? I'll try to summarize what Andy says (any mistakes are my own misunderstandings):
--the German method is the most common, and that means people use card-by-card combinations to read. Card X + Card Y + Card Z = Interpretation(s)
--He also describes how there are Dutch & Belgium variations of the "German School". They are all more similar than they are different.
--The meanings listed on Andy's, Chanah's, or Lord Elwin's websites are German.
--The French method (in Europe at least) is apparently to use the distance that cards fall from each to make interpretations rather than combinations.
--HOWEVER, from what I've seen online, most English-speaking people who SAY they are using the French Method are actually reading combinations (German-style) but with French card meanings (Sylvie Steinbech students excepted)
--From what I can tell, Donnaleigh is like this: she uses French meanings but combines cards.
--The French meanings can be found at Madame Seaqueen's site. Helen's meanings list a little of both.
--Sylvie Steinbech's book and her online course are based in the French method, but she's also kind of created her own twist on it. She reads with less emphasis on combinations and does use distance, and her only layout is the "No Layout" spread.
Does that help you categorize people any better?
If you combine cards systematically with either the German or French meanings, you'll be fine, and you'll be "reading Lenormand."
Pick someone's list of meanings from our suggested websites (or get a course), and forge ahead. greatdane
ok one more question please
Yes, Kalliope, thank you, it does help me distinquish what different PEOPLE do, and I get systems may have more in common than differences, but obviously there ARE differences or there wouldn't be different systems, right? I have been looking at the links you all so kindly provided, but there it can get MORE, not less confusing, at least for a newbie. I need to stick with ONE person, one way of seeing the cards, til I at LEAST get the very basics. To start, I need to be clear, at the beginning, with one way of reading, one kind of set of meanings, so I can get a real sense of this before getting into the intricacies or little differences between systems or how certain people read. Reading some of the posts have made my head spin trying to keep up. I'm sure this is because I am, well, really new.
SO...if I am going to follow ONE person, ONE way to just start.....I need to pick that person, their system for at least a little bit. I DEFINITELY want and need a system or style and I need it clear.
Yes, Kalliope, thank you, it does help me distinquish what different PEOPLE do, and I get systems may have more in common than differences, but obviously there ARE differences or there wouldn't be different systems, right? I have been looking at the links you all so kindly provided, but there it can get MORE, not less confusing, at least for a newbie. I need to stick with ONE person, one way of seeing the cards, til I at LEAST get the very basics. To start, I need to be clear, at the beginning, with one way of reading, one kind of set of meanings, so I can get a real sense of this before getting into the intricacies or little differences between systems or how certain people read. Reading some of the posts have made my head spin trying to keep up. I'm sure this is because I am, well, really new.
SO...if I am going to follow ONE person, ONE way to just start.....I need to pick that person, their system for at least a little bit. I DEFINITELY want and need a system or style and I need it clear.
kalliope
The main difference in "methods" really is what I stated in my last post: card combining (German) vs. near-far (French). A few card meanings are different between the two as well.
Any differences beyond that will be the natural variation that occurs between individual readers who are otherwise doing the same thing -- their own style overlaid on the method, if you will (their own pet card combinations, their favorite way to dissect a spread, etc.)
Yes, if things are making your head spin, I'd stick with one main blog. Maybe print out the meanings. Andy recommends that you then go through and pick 1-2 nouns and 1-2 adjectives for each card (from your chosen set of traditional meanings) to create your own personal list. That's what you'll use as you learn to combine cards. (You can include additional secondary meanings later on.)
But if the blogs are driving you batty and you want things really very clear and laid out for you, as you said above, I would consider just getting one of the courses! You'll avoid ambiguity, and you could get your course materials in 24 hours and be on your way.
greatdane
Thanks, Kalliope
I'm sure once I'm a bit more familiar, the small differences and variances won't be confusing to me. You're right, I do need to stick with one basic person or site til I get my bearings a bit more
I'm sure once I'm a bit more familiar, the small differences and variances won't be confusing to me. You're right, I do need to stick with one basic person or site til I get my bearings a bit more
kalliope
Adopt either the French or German tradition and you'll be on the "right" side. It seems impossible to pin anyone down as to what system is more popular or more correct. However, there is general agreement that taking one's own individualistic approach is more-or-less (profound wishy-washiness
AndyBC is of the opinion that the German (and its close variations) is the most popular, so there's at least one person you can pin down! As for which is "more correct" you're sounding like you want external sources that you could check against (as with esotericism). But there are none beyond the fact that the method (and variations) developed over time within the folk tradition of cartomancy and then remained remarkably consistent as it was passed down to new readers. The symbols just came to mean what they mean, as with any language, no big mystery behind it. I think "correct" these days simply means learning to speak these "dialects" instead of making up our own.
I was going through the "Why Lenormand" thread from the beginning, and I was struck by how enthusiastic you were about Lenormand at that point. You even said something about being attracted to the elaborate "system" of it all! I'm sad and surprised then that the system-defenders ended up ruining it for you...
lark
I was as confused as you are when I first started, but watching DonnaLeigh's YouTube videos really cleared up a lot for me.
They came at just the right time when I needed some simplification.
I've been using the meanings she offers, and as a spread I designate a card that is related to the question, and then shuffle, and then find that card in the deck and lay out the 2 cards that come before it and the two cards that come after it.
These cards become the details around the question.
Sometimes they read like a perfect sentence.
What I like about lenormand is it is short and sweet and to the point.
Silvie's method totally confused me, I always felt like there was a piece missing...like I wasn't getting the whole story.
It felt like trying to read through fog.
I think one of the important things...at least for me was...I had to really see a meaning in a card.
It had to make sense to my life experience...it had to fit my world view.
I couldn't accept a meaning just because tradition deemed it so.
Donna's meanings fit how I saw the cards...I can remember them because they make sense to me.
So once I gave myself permission to just stick to those meanings it turned the key in the lock and presto I was in.
Everything started to flow and I was doing readings...good readings that were predicting things and giving me wonderful insights.
I stopped worrying about was I into the right method, was there something better out there, was I missing some vital meaning, some perfect method.
For heaven's sake at one point I was trying to learn 4 different methods and driving myself nuts!
So I really give all the credit to DonnaLeigh...her videos really brought it all together for me, and saved my sanity.
They came at just the right time when I needed some simplification.
I've been using the meanings she offers, and as a spread I designate a card that is related to the question, and then shuffle, and then find that card in the deck and lay out the 2 cards that come before it and the two cards that come after it.
These cards become the details around the question.
Sometimes they read like a perfect sentence.
What I like about lenormand is it is short and sweet and to the point.
Silvie's method totally confused me, I always felt like there was a piece missing...like I wasn't getting the whole story.
It felt like trying to read through fog.
I think one of the important things...at least for me was...I had to really see a meaning in a card.
It had to make sense to my life experience...it had to fit my world view.
I couldn't accept a meaning just because tradition deemed it so.
Donna's meanings fit how I saw the cards...I can remember them because they make sense to me.
So once I gave myself permission to just stick to those meanings it turned the key in the lock and presto I was in.
Everything started to flow and I was doing readings...good readings that were predicting things and giving me wonderful insights.
I stopped worrying about was I into the right method, was there something better out there, was I missing some vital meaning, some perfect method.
For heaven's sake at one point I was trying to learn 4 different methods and driving myself nuts!
So I really give all the credit to DonnaLeigh...her videos really brought it all together for me, and saved my sanity.
