XVIIII Le Soleil

wall or fence?

Collins English Dictionary:

wall 1a a vertical construction made of stone, brick, wood etc. with a length and height much greater than its thickness, used to enclose, divide or support.

fence 1 a structure that serves to enclose an area such as a garden or field, usually made of posts of timber, concrete, or metal connected by wire, netting, rails, or boards

Wouldn't a fence in the period of the Marseilles or earlier be made of stone?

I think it's a fence XTAX

I have always found that one of the most baffling things about XVIIII Le Soleil is the darkened and unsmiling visage seen of the "face of the sun." It seems bemusedly inscrutable to me.

The recent transit of Venus gave me an idea. Since card XVIIII corresponds to letter 19 of the Phoenician alphabet (I'm not into kabbalah), the attribution is for "Qoph" and signifies the 12th solar month, Pisces. Venus is exalted in Pisces.

Other letter/card sign/exaltation matches:
Le Pape: Sun in Aries
L'Amoureux: Moon in Taurus
Justice: Jupiter in Cancer
Le Pendu: Saturn in Libra (those legs again)
North and South Nodes in Gemini and Sagittarius, VII and XV
La Maison Dieu: Mars in Capricorn
La Roue de Fortune: Mercury in Virgo


Venus transits, though rare, are common astrological knowledge, and I think there is ample evidence that the ideas behind much of the Tarot contain references to planets, the zodiac, etc.

It should be noted that in the Phoenician alphabet the correspondece for the Sun itself is "Pe" (letter 17), so for many this may be a challenging way to look at the cards. Personally, I think it is worth considering ~ another twist to the Tarot, but one that fits very well if given a chance.

Re: wall or fence?

TemperanceAngel said:

fence 1 a structure that serves to enclose an area such as a garden or field, usually made of posts of timber, concrete, or metal connected by wire, netting, rails, or boards

I think it's a fence

Click to expand...

And did I even make sense in any of my statement?

Fulgour I like your twist of Tarot....

Though one may be clear about the nineteenth letter in a given alphabet once that order or pattern becomes established, I remain unsure upon what Fulgour bases the assertion that 'Qoph' signifies the twelfth sign (Pisces), or why it is claimed that the (Phoenician) letter corresponding to the Sun itself is 'Pe' - I say this based on more Greek considerations of letter attributions, which may have been the basis from which Phoenician and Hebrew letter correlations may later have also been made, and made in various ways.

Again, though I personally want to broaden my own sense of the possible with regards to as yet unconsidered astrological or other correlations with Tarot imagery, I am unsure as to how Venus being exalted in Pisces is represented on the Marseille depiction...

These are worthwhile considerations - but just fail to see them myself.

Please note that a number of posts to this thread were lost over the last few days.

Also of note is that some of the discussion originally here was moved to another thread in the Kabalah and Letter attribution section, in the thread Phoenician letter correspondences & Astrological considerations.

thanks, jmd

and while xviiii le soleil is not the featured topic at the
kabbalah site, the phoenician alphabet correspondences
are certainly worth noting, since 'the sun' and 'the moon'
are prominently featured

fulgour

Though I am unable to post again the comments made by a number of other contributors, I trust that those I am able to recover from my own posts urges others to make further ongoing contributions. In this case, my two posts which follow herein were amidst those of Fulgour and others:

I am personally unsure that the face of the Sun is coloured darkly per se... or at least, I tend not to see it in that light (but that is perhaps just me ).

In a number of early decks, the image appears to be rather golden or yellowed, as one would reflect and attempt to represent the Sun.

In more modern Marseille representations, the Sun is 'clearly' bright gold or yellow (with, possibly, the exception of the Spanish Fournier version).

But still, let us, for a moment, consider the Sun as but darkly visibly re-presented...

What comes to mind are three considerations. On the one hand, when one looks at the Sun in reflective contemplation, there is certainly a visual aspect which darkens as the brightness alters the visual sensation (for a but poor representation of why I mean, counting the 'black dots' joining the squares of this image); on the other hand, there is always reference to the Spiritual Sun, which by comparison makes of the Sun but a darkened lower being; and on the third hand (well... I had to continue!), there is reference to the Sun at Midnight, or the Midnight Sun, streaming forth its pourings amidst what only appears dark.
_____
In an earlier attachment I make (in the early part of the thread) to J-C Flornoy's reproduction of the same card, his careful attention to detail and to colour remnant has also lead him to colour the face as blue (Cf Flornoy's Dodal reproduction of XVIIII).

It is in fact his very reproduction which first lead me to consider the Sun as possibly representing, as mentioned above, the Sun as not solar sun but rather as Spiritual Dark Sun, and my other comments related... but re-reading my opening previous sentence makes me realise that it could have been read in a somewhat dismissive tone to the very important considerations brought by Penelope.

Thanks also to Fulgour for the link to Flornoy's site on which a fantastic scan of the remnant Dodal Sun can be so clearly viewed. And by the way, the Dodal forms also part of my trilogy of favourites
_____

Anyhow, for the sake of ongoing image comparisons, attached is the Grimaud version

jmd said:

...on the other hand, there is always reference to the Spiritual Sun, which by comparison makes of the Sun but a darkened lower being; and on the third hand (well... I had to continue!), there is reference to the Sun at Midnight, or the Midnight Sun, streaming forth its pourings amidst what only appears dark.

Click to expand...

"The Star of the Sun" referred to might actually be seen on card XVIII La Lune, as an artistic representation of Saturn, which would be perfectly at home there, in Aquarius.

http://www.varchive.org/itb/sunstar.htm

In many ancient sources Saturn is called “sun.” The usual name for Saturn in Chaldean astronomy was Alap-Shamas, meaning “Star of the Sun.”

J. Menant, La bibliotheque du Palais du Ninive (Paris, 1890), p. 99.

Three arms?

A couple posts up, jmd links to a small picture of El Sol in the Fournier Spanish deck. I'm not concerned with the blue face of the sun at the moment, but rather with the children.

I've attached a scan showing a detail of El Sol. You can clearly see that one of the children has three arms. The other has one, although one arm could be behind him I suppose.

Artist's error? I don't know, but I imagine the 1975 artist who did the reproduction was following what she saw in the 1736 original.

I don't know what this signifies, if anything. But Zaphod Beeblebrox (from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy) springs to mind, giving this card a bit more energy than it usually has, or even a note of mild insanity....

Sometimes late at night, when the midnight oil burns brightly,
I can imagine the two 'children' on Le Soleil as representing
Aleph and Taw meeting, having come full circle round.

The three arms here could be this artists conceptialization
of Le Fol as 'Sin with its 3 extended letter elements.

Did you ever wonder about the little shoot between the
legs of the righthand child, much like Le Bateleur? (Aleph)
And the tail so often pictured on the lefthand child,
kind of maybe what the little dog was scratching at
there behind Le Fol? (Taw)