Restored Marseilles decks - Do they help or do they frustrate?

Restored Marseilles decks -- Do they help or do they frustrate?

There are a number of 20th century restorations/re-creations of Marseilles decks, based primarily on the 1760 Conver Marseilles deck.

For example:

- Marteau's 1930 deck
- the sometime post-1930 Grimaud re-do of Marteau's 1930 deck
- the Jodo-Camoin deck
- the Hadar deck

(Note: the Fournier is a clone of the Grimaud, so Grimaud materials are, in the main, helpful.)

Of these, only the Marteau/Grimaud deck has a book written by the restorer (in this case, Paul Marteau) that explains the symbolism, including the symbolism that differs from the Conver. Even there, Marteau doesn't necessarily explain why he chose to alter the Conver symbolism. He gives an esoteric explanation of symbolism, not the reasons for changing the symbolism -- or the colours!

While I like the photoreproductions (e.g., Héron and Lo Scarabeo versions of the 1760 Conver) for their living history and for study, I like the clean lines and clear colours of a restoration when it comes to reading or meditating with them. By far the nicest, for its clean lines and clear and bright colours, is the Jodo-Camoin. But I find it distracting and frustrating that various details have been added or "restored" to the Conver, or that its colours - while generally respecting the Héron specimen's colours - have been changed. And I find it even more frustrating that there is nothing from the restorers explaining why the symbolism and colours were changed. For instance, details are added to the devil in the Devil card, and it's left to us to discover that those details are from the Dodal TdM's Devil card. To me, the Jodo-Camoin would have been ideal if it followed as closely as possible the 1760 Conver (Héron). However, such a deck probably would not have been made by Jodo and Camoin as the raison d'être of their mission was to restore/add the 'missing' details.

While I would like to get the Hadar deck as the Conver Marseilles is my area of tarot interest, I sense that I would become frustrated with it ... waiting for the (appreciated) posts from Monsieur Hadar explaining why changes were made.

Re: Restored Marseilles decks -- Do they help or do they frustrate?

Rusty Neon said:

While I would like to get the Hadar deck as the Conver Marseilles is my area of tarot interest, I sense that I would become frustrated with it ... waiting for the (appreciated) posts from Monsieur Hadar explaining why changes were made.

Click to expand...

Rusty Neon: Did you maybe miss this thread???

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?threadid=21791


It's the one you started.... and Kris Hadar's answer is on it. First his original post in French, then the translation. There is a link there to one of Kaz's web-pages where she kindly put up some pictures that Kris Hadar sent as well.....

(I tried to PM you a few times when I posted the answer, but at that time your PM box was always full.)

Yes, I read that thread. And I wrote a thank-you post to that thread, but one of the moderating staff deleted my post because it was in the language in which Mr. Hadar wrote his post (French).

My concern if I get this deck is that I'll inevitably have lots of _other_ questions which I'll have to hope for answers to. I haven't had to ask those questions yet, as I don't have the deck yet. But, if I don't get the deck, then I won't have any questions that I'll feel compelled to try to get answered. See my dilemma? Anyway, I'll probably end up getting the deck in the next little while.

Rusty Neon: Kris Hadar is very willing to answer our questions about his deck. In fact, I think he is eager to answer them. Just make a thread with the questions, and I will relay them to him and translate his answers. (Right now though, he is unavailalbe as he is having an operation and will need some time to recuperate.)

To put this thread back on topic, I'd like to stress that my concern is with restored Marseilles decks generally (not the Hadar in particular).

Two concerns:

DISTRACTION

When using a restored Marseilles deck, I can't help but be distracted by - and have my eyes drawn to - whatever details are different from the 1760 Conver. Sometimes, it's as though the meaning I give to the card in a restored deck can't help but be directly linked to the nuance that the "restored" detail is expressing. The restored detail can end up trumping the rest of the details of the card. For instance, the bottom door in the Tower card of the Jodo-Camoin deck is inevitably a focal point for the eyes whenever looking at that card, and could skew the divinatory meaning that one would otherwise give to the card in the context.

ESOTERIC LIBERTY

Part of the beauty of the Marseilles is that, unlike occultists' decks like the RWS and the Thoth, any esoteric underlay in the Tarot de Marseille is slight enough so as not to prevent us from being able to overlay our own esoteric interpretations. The "restored" details in the restored TdM decks impose the restorers' esoteric views onto the deck. I'm not saying that this is always a bad thing, as we can learn from their views. However, it could be less disruptive if they're written about in a book rather than depicted on the cards themselves.

Linked to this is that we rely on their interpretations of those details. Companion books, or other explanation (such as email correspondence with the restorers) become almost a necessity.

Good question...

There's an older Marsiglia French Swiss 1804 variant with French titles that I am looking at that would be a 'photoreproduction' and I like the fact it doesn't have distracting modern details.

Some of the line variations and aging details and startingly handsome differences of the original design makes the deck more appealing to me. A few of my newer, cleaned up variations (Fournier/Hader) just did not have the character the older versions exhibit. So I am pleased to keep my aged photoreproductions as wise friends and let the younger ones smile their shiny faces into other adoring hands.

From my perspective, numerous 'alterations' to the Conver in creating modern renditions of the Marseilles are quite legitimate, whereas others are not.

For example, one of the few frustrations I have with the Camoin is the addition of the door on the Tower card - though for study purposes, it may bring to visual attention in obvious ways that the person falling at the rear of the Tower (in other Marseilles decks) may in fact be falling through a hidden-from-view doorway. Conversely, their clarity of the ptaform upon which the figure of the Star kneels has made it easier to also isolate the same detail in other Marseille decks, as it likewise has, as another example, the hind-legs of the horses on the Chariot card.

In addition, and as mentioned in another thread, the Hadar and other possible reproductions (including the Camoin) base their creations on more than simply the Conver, but on various extant cards in the Marseille pattern, including the Dodal, Chosson and Noblet. For the Camoin-Jodorowski deck, there is to my eyes clear evidence, despite their claim otherwise, that they allowed the Grimaud to influence their choice in some situations.

I personally only find the 'restored' decks frustrating if they presume or claim to be fully accurate reproductions, and are not, for then it remains quite difficult, if not impossible, to ascertain whether a small detail is in the original or only in the more recent version. If the claim is 'only' to be an 'authentic' Marseille, then there are less constraints on the artist, for various codes or sweeps within the deck, being maintained, would also allow for variety of individual artistic expression - as it must also have been the case in the 18th century and earlier.