Wondering: A short list of Marseille conundrums...

Satori

I don't have a very interesting or historical question to ask. Just a few little things.

-Why do most people write epees and on my Hadar deck it says espees?

-Why do I rarely see people who post on this forum doing readings on the Reading Exchange or in our new Let's Marseille! group? (Please consider this an invitation to join us. I would love to read with many of you and learn from you.)

-Were wands common in the Middle Ages? Swords, cups and deniers I get, but what did people do with wands? I'm thinking fiery brands, sticks taken from the fire to light the path, but is that a wand? Or a torch? Where did wand come from, the use of the word I mean.

-I'm becoming very attracted to the Fournier. What can you tell me about it?

All replies appreciated.
 

jmd

If you're interested in the Fournier, get it :)

The colouration seems a little overdone to my personal liking, and it thus remains one of the Marseille I still intend to get, but have not yet obtained.

With regards to the spelling of Epees/Espees, the accent on the first 'e' in effect 'replaces' the 's': espées is equivalent to épées... why do some people spell 'neighour' as 'neighbor', or 'centre' as 'center'?

As to the Reading Exchange 'Let's Marseille' groups, I personally think they are a wonderful addition, but am more likely to comment in the 'Your Readings' section on a spread undertaken with the Marseille - why? possibly because I do enough readings away from the boards... I know that's not a very good excuse... :)
 

Rusty Neon

elf said:
-Why do most people write epees and on my Hadar deck it says espees?

In modern French, É [E with the acute accent] can replace the older ES spelling. Thus, "épées" is a modern spelling of "espees". For example, in English, "Old" is a modern spelling of "Olde". No modern day Francophone would dream of spelling épée as espee in daily general written contexts.

elf said:
-Why do I rarely see people who post on this forum doing readings on the Reading Exchange or in our new Let's Marseille! group? (Please consider this an invitation to join us. I would love to read with many of you and learn from you.)

The Let's Marseille group started out as being effectively a Let's Hadar group. I understand that people with Marseille decks are also officially welcome and, in fact, I've seen some brave souls posting with Marseille decks, sometimes after asking if they're allowed to use a deck other than a Hadar! :) I would suggest that the organizers of that group post scans of images from decks other than the Hadar as well. Thus far, the default deck used by the organizers for scanned images for which links are given in the threads is the Hadar as though it were some kind of gold standard in Marseille decks (which is it NOT). The cards of the Hadar materially diverges from corresponding cards from today's in-print Marseille decks. I trust that with time and with exposure to decks other than the Hadar, the dynamic of the group will cease to be as Hadar-centric. I am truly hopeful.

-Were wands common in the Middle Ages? Swords, cups and deniers I get, but what did people do with wands? I'm thinking fiery brands, sticks taken from the fire to light the path, but is that a wand? Or a torch? Where did wand come from, the use of the word I mean.

The European tarot suit symbols are borrowed from the suit symbols in the Arabian "Mamluk" playing-card deck. The batons or rods of the tarot are an adaption from the correspondng suit symbol in the Mamluk deck -- polo sticks. See: http://it.geocities.com/a_pollett/cards34.htm

-I'm becoming very attracted to the Fournier. What can you tell me about it?

It's a great deck and many people are drawn to its vibrancy. Go for it. The card line-drawings closely follow the Grimaud/Marteau pattern of the 1930s whose card line-drawings, in turn, closely follow the 1760 Conver pattern.
 

Rusty Neon

jmd said:
With regards to the spelling of Epees/Espees, the accent on the first 'e' in effect 'replaces' the 's': espées is equivalent to épées... why do some people spell 'neighour' as 'neighbor', or 'centre' as 'center'?

American spelling is 'neighbor', 'center', while British & Commonwealth spelling is 'neighbour', 'centre'. Yet, both types of spelling are considered modern English spelling. On the other hand, the spelling 'espées' is 'épées' is archaic French spelling that isn't used in general-topic written discourse in today's French.
 

jmd

Thankyou Rusty Neon - my question was rhetorical, but I suppose that my often serious-type postings may have masked that.
 

Fulgour

elf said:
-I'm becoming very attracted to the Fournier. What can you tell me about it?
Fournier's Le Tarot de Marseille and Spanish Tarot are inexpensive,
and so really not anything to worry about if you want them
for your collection. As reading decks, you will find both have
the same very, very distracting colours ~ blue for Swords, and
Orange for Cups, Green for Baton/Wands, and Yellow for Coins.

Why? Ah, well ~ it's the Spanish Kabbalah colour scheme. You'll
also see it on The Crystal Tarots and El Gran Tarot Esoterico, etc.
although it varies as to intensity. Fournier is very candy-coloured.

Tell me more about the Reading Exchange & Let's Marseille...
I guess I'm kind of shy about just stumbling in :) (dunno why).
 

Satori

jmd said:
As to the Reading Exchange 'Let's Marseille' groups, I personally think they are a wonderful addition, but am more likely to comment in the 'Your Readings' section on a spread undertaken with the Marseille - why? possibly because I do enough readings away from the boards... I know that's not a very good excuse... :)

jmd, you are funny.
Well, I know you hate to turn down a sincere request.
So, a request and an invitation.
Do join us sometime. We have a new thread up in the games section.
Perhaps you are interested in some Marseille mystery???
And from there, who knows, anything is possible...
 

Satori

Rusty Neon said:
The Let's Marseille group started out as being effectively a Let's Hadar group. I understand that people with Marseille decks are also officially welcome and, in fact, I've seen some brave souls posting with Marseille decks, sometimes after asking if they're allowed to use a deck other than a Hadar! :) I would suggest that the organizers of that group post scans of images from decks other than the Hadar as well. Thus far, the default deck used by the organizers for scanned images for which links are given in the threads is the Hadar as though it were some kind of gold standard in Marseille decks (which is it NOT). The cards of the Hadar materially diverges from corresponding cards from today's in-print Marseille decks. I trust that with time and with exposure to decks other than the Hadar, the dynamic of the group will cease to be as Hadar-centric. I am truly hopeful.

Rusty Neon, you are welcome to join us.
I don't have a scanner or a Grimaud or other Marseille deck....just the Hadar and the Lo Scarabeo Conver. Many people recommended it, and so I tried out the Hadar. I like it.

Hadar-centric or not, we are using a deck style you love, right?

(sigh) Does it matter if my bike is a tri-cycle and yours is a Schwinn (spelling?) as long as we have fun riding bikes?????
 

Satori

Fulgour said:
Fournier's Le Tarot de Marseille and Spanish Tarot
Tell me more about the Reading Exchange & Let's Marseille...
I guess I'm kind of shy about just stumbling in :) (dunno why).

Consider yourself invited, Friend Fulgour!
We are having fun reading with the Marseille decks.

There are people using different decks than the Hadar, as long as it is a Marseille deck anyone is welcome to join us. Plus, Charming Pixie came up with the idea that if you don't have a Marseille deck you could use any Tarot deck and then look at the scans of her Hadar for your reading.

We currently have a thread in the games section of the forum where you post a reading, the entire reading, with one card name missing. People can post and try to guess the missing card.

Plus there have been energy readings for the month, and advice readings, and Tangos...see you can even dance with our group!

See you there! I'll even send you a link when we start up the next readings....
 

ihcoyc

elf said:
-Why do most people write epees and on my Hadar deck it says espees?
My Tarot de Paris also uses espee; plural 's' is usually not marked in it either. Conver, by contrast, always uses epee, without plural 's' either. It wasn't customary to write accents on capital letters in French in 1760 by my recollection.

-Were wands common in the Middle Ages? Swords, cups and deniers I get, but what did people do with wands? I'm thinking fiery brands, sticks taken from the fire to light the path, but is that a wand? Or a torch? Where did wand come from, the use of the word I mean.
From Old Norse vøndr, etymologically. It was the Golden Dawn that first called bâtons "wands" (and deniers "pentacles"), and it was Waite and Smith and their deck that popularised them.

The problem is, there really isn't an elegant English equivalent for bâtons, which covers a great deal of sematic space in English: stick, pole, rod, club. cudgel, bat, staff. The crude cudgel of the Ace, the shillelaghs of Valet and Cavalier, the Herculean club of the Queen, the King's oversized sceptre, and the turned rods of the pips are all bâtons. It's one of those Whorfian problems you aren't going to get around easily.

A similar problem exists with deniers; "coins" is barely adequate. A denier was originally a denarius, a Roman penny. The form of the word best nativized in English is "dinar." A "penny" might be a better translation --- better yet if you can envision a large old English penny before the Vile Scourge of Decimalism swept them away.

"Wands" and especially "pentacles" rub some the wrong way, I think, mostly because they smack of magickal obfuscation, lend a false grandeur to the humble objects that are the suit tokens, and assume a whole system that ain't necessarily so. I'd be prepared to accept "wands" as being one of the few English words that covers all of these sticks; the other one being "stick," but that's just wrong.