Cavalier De Coupe

I am using the 'Ancient Tarot of Marseilles' - Conver, LS.

Was just wondering, is there any reason why this Cavalier does not wear a hat, crown etc, as it seems that the other fifteen courts do. The only one that is not as elaborate is the Coupe 'Valet'.

Also, while on this Cavalier, for a cavalier, he doesn't seem very enthusiastic about his role within the court. He always seems a little dopey to me, plodding along and not really getting anywhere fast. Is it because he is so wrapped up in his emotions and pursuits of his lovelife, that keep his mind elsewhere?

Yabs

Maybe we could consider them as a sort of “upgrades” of the Pages – this knight certainly looks like the Page of Cup’s older brother, with that long, blond hair, looking more like a poet than a man of arms… He is certainly not a conventional guy.

(I am not looking at the Conver, but I think he always wears a hat, only he wears it thrown over his shoulders).

All of the Cups folks seem like tragic figures in some way to me. Moreover, most of them --- especially the Valet and the Cavalier --- seem much more absorbed in the suit emblems they are carrying than some of the other courts. In some versions, the Valet is using his sleeve to cover or hide the contents of his cup, although he seems to be gazing at it quite mournfully and intently. The Cavalier, on his slow horse, seems quite tragically intent on the cup he carries, and is paying attention to it rather than to where he's going. The Valet also doesn't wear a proper hat; he just has a wreath of flowers.

Both strike me as the sort of folks who post bad poetry about suicide in their LiveJournals. They're perfect examples of why I tend to believe that sorrow, fear, heartbreak, and despair are Cups business rather than Swords business.

ihcoyc said:

They're perfect examples of why I tend to believe that sorrow, fear, heartbreak, and despair are Cups business rather than Swords business.

Click to expand...

I was thinking this exact thing. It does make sense. Even the Queen looks as though she is about to burst into tears if she hasn't already. Maybe the lack of the crown etc shows how they can be less 'protected' by their words or physical attributes. They have their hearts and emotions on show and can be hurt or damaged easily. I have read in books that the Cavalier can not always be trusted; that he is not dependable in emotional issues, but in looking at this one, his only problem to me is that maybe he is over analytical about himself and worries too much; not that he is some kind of romeo or stud that can not offer enough to just one lover. He seems to have inner demons and confidence issues. I usually see the cups as emotional turmoils when reversed, as apose to seeing emotional hardship or loss in cards such as the 3, 9 and 10 of Swords.

Yabs

Lo Scarabeo : Ancient Tarots of Marseille

Yaboot said:

Was just wondering, is there any reason why
this Cavalier does not wear a hat...

Click to expand...

What a pleasant day it must be for our Cavalier de Coupe,
and I'd say he's slung his bonnet over his back by a string.

No need to guard against a too hot Sun, or keep off the rain,
he's enjoying perfect weather, and dreamily taking his time.

Looking at the high grasses through which he and his horse
are manoeuvring, I'd say they'd even chosen a side route,
thus gingerly they proceed, Coupe upraised from any dust.

Mayhaps this is a secret way now taken, off the beaten path.
The concern we see upon his visage may reflect forebodings.

Intriguing inquiry, Yaboot.

Here's something that might be relevant...or not.
I came across something on Valet de Chambre, which reminds me of Valet de Coupe.
From: Website: valet de chambre
In the fourteenth century we see the development of a new position at court: valet de chambre. This refers to the salaried employees in the hierarchy of court servants. Court singers, musicians, gold- and silversmiths, embroiderers, sculptors, and painters are included in the lists of valets de chambre. As a valet de chambre one would swear an oath to serve loyally, receive a regular salary, be given robes fitting to one's station, sometimes be provided housing, and frequently have special status.

It reminds me of this Valet; as if, unlike the other valets that must be preoccupied with practical matters pertaining to their suits, the Valet de Coupe is in the inner court, more relaxed into the matters of the humanities, thus hat-less (not on a practical errand) but contemplative-- contemplating matters of the heart.

Or, maybe his hat will mess up his coiffed hair.

I have read in books that the Cavalier can not always be trusted; that he is not dependable in emotional issues, but in looking at this one, his only problem to me is that maybe he is over analytical about himself and worries too much; not that he is some kind of romeo or stud that can not offer enough to just one lover. He seems to have inner demons and confidence issues.

Click to expand...

Wow, you just perfectly described someone I know. He will forever be the Cavalier to me now! Tortured angst alternating with impulsive desperation in love. He's his own worst enemy, but drives all his women (there are many) crazy with his neediness.

There's an adolescent torment rooted in an unloved childhood in this card, no matter how old the person is.

I have never looked at the Cavalier in this way until I started to get to know the Marseilles courts, with the help of the Greer/Little book, 'Understanding the Tarot Court'.

I wrote about him in another thread somewhere; talking about how he seemed just a little bit 'dopey' (as does his brother, the Valet). This kind of endears me to him, though.

Like you, Imagemaker, he reminds me very much of a friend of mine; a very handsome, statuesque and beautiful blonde gentleman. He is angelic, a little feminine in looks, is kind and sensitive and very romantic. Women love him. On the outside, they see this 'magazine-like' Cavalier. On the inside, though, he crumbles. His confidence is often shot to pieces; he constantly worries about his health; he thinks too much. He seeks far too intricately into that open cup and is wounded easily. I can see that, like Fulgour, maybe he is a dreamy sort, but for me, he seems also, to be tortured in some way. I imagine he feels he will never work his way up to the position of King. The only thing that will get him there is the years of experience he has under his belt, from dreaming, overanalysing and taking on the cares and burdens of all the people around him in his life. He is not selfish enough to turn a destressed soul away and he can empathise.

Yabs

A Distant Star ~ Ancient Astrology

This is so cool ~ we're Talking Tarot in the
"Marseilles & other early decks" forum.

I always see the Cavalier de Coupe as representing:

Pisces: Compassion, Universality, Inclusiveness

12th House: Subconscious, Privacy,
Karma, the results of the life we choose

Jupiter: Optimism, Growth, the search for answers

The Four Cavaliers

Looking at the 'Cavalier De Baton' and the 'Cavalier De'Epee', I can see some kind of authority in their stance. The 'C D'Eppe' holds his sword infront of him, ready to defend if attacked. The 'C De Baton' raises his baton, as if to warn someone off and establish his position. The 'C' De Deniers' is a little more relaxed than the other two, but rides into town trumphantly, keeping his vision ahead of him and on his goal (the coin).
And then we have the 'C De Coupe', tentatively plodding along on his horse, He is the only one thyat doesn't particularly look confident on their animal. The horse is so much smaller than the others; almost like a toy horse or small pony. All of the other Cavaliers hold their tools with some kind of determination or purpose. The Cavalier de Coupe holds it from the base, rather than the neck and looks as though he is about to drop it. He looks as though he has little belief in his challise. On his face, there is a look of concern and worry. In the Conver version I am using, unlike the Grimaud, he looks as though he is actually biting his lip through worry.
Despite the negative and wimpy connotations I have seen here, I do actually like these feelings I get for him because they warm him to me and he is showing me his personality.

Thanks for all responses so far.

yabs