The Mystic Tackle Box

Fulgour

The earliest Tarot decks were unnumbered, but that can
be easily explained because cards 1 to 22 are ideograms
for the Phoenician (Hebrew) alphabet. They're the ABCs.
And the Aces, Courts, and Pips need no big explanation.

But what about Kabbalah and Numerology? What does
applying the information available in those systems add
to the otherwise straightforward significance of the cards?

*

You can fish using a line on a pole with a worm on a hook,
or collect an assortment of lures to help add an advantage.
Maybe you choose to cast out from the left side of the boat,
or do your fishing in the morning, or only during a sunset.

Any way you go with it, the fish has a lot to say about things,
and it's not going to help much at all trying if the water is bad.
Tarot takes us into the mystic realms of ancient teachings and
much like the fisherman it can be sport or mean life and death.

*

Here's a sample question along these lines I'll call:
Red Devil # 9 "The World's Greatest Fishing Lure"

How (and why) is it that the first 10 cards of the Major Arcana
are associated with the Sephora, and why use numberological
reduction for the Majors over 10 to have them conform as well?
Is the Pythagorean Decad the final authority for such matters?
 

venicebard

Fulgour said:
The earliest Tarot decks were unnumbered, but that can
be easily explained because cards 1 to 22 are ideograms
for the Phoenician (Hebrew) alphabet...

But what about Kabbalah and Numerology? What does
applying the information available in those systems add
to the otherwise straightforward significance of the cards?

[Question:]

How (and why) is it that the first 10 cards of the Major Arcana
are associated with the Sephora, and why use numberological [sic]
reduction for the Majors over 10 to have them conform as well?
Is the Pythagorean Decad the final authority for such matters?
Whatever your letter-trump associations, consider this (which transcends them):

I and XXI are: thing-in-itself, thing in relation to two 10-fingereds...
...and XI is: thing in relation to one 10-fingered.

II and XX are both ‘plus-twos’, increasing numerological sums by 2...
...as, again, is XI (one thing plus one 10-fingered).

III and XVIIII are both ‘plus-one’ electron in valence (lithium, potassium)...
...as, again, is XI (sodium).

Add to this the fact that Lurianic Kabbalah says the first three Sefirot remained intact when the other seven (or six plus half of Malkut, since there one finds the Shekhinah or Presence) were shattered and became the Q’lifot (IIII-XVIII, V-XVII, VI-XVI, VII-XV, VIII-XIIII, VIIII-XIII, and half of X-XII). I guess the ‘half’ of Malkut not shattered was the crude fact of X-XI-XII being, at least, consecutive.

. . .

The Pythagorean tetraktys corresponds to the (Kabbalistic) Tree in the suit Coupe (diagram of Tree as generally known) and shows that it is not just 3 triads but 1, then 2, then 3, then 4 types (of idealized form), each group sharing an 'earth' or layer. As triangle, the third element (of Euclid's Elements), it stands for water or form and governs the hierarchy of forms (of sentient being).
 

Fulgour

15 in place with 7 "out there"

Right off we have 12 letters that are definite
so far as which letters and what attributes.
Aleph Men and Shin are also clearly in place:

Letters 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16, 18, 19

5 He: 1st mo: exaltation of the Sun
6 Waw: 2nd mo: exaltation of the Moon
7 Zayin: 3rd mo: exaltation of North Node
8 Heth: 4th mo: exaltation of Jupiter
9 Teth: 5th mo. (aligns with Shin 21)
10 Yodh: 6th mo: exaltation of Mercury
12 Lamedh: 7th mo: exaltation of Saturn
14 Nun: 8th mo. (aligns with Mem 13)
15 Samekh: 9th mo: exaltation of South Node
16 Ayin: 10th mo: exaltation of Mars
18 Tsade: 11th mo. (aligns with Aleph 1)
19 Qoph: 12th mo: exaltation of Venus

*

The Babylonian month names were:

Adaru
Nisanu
Ayaru
Simanu
Du'uzu
Abu
Ululu
Tashritu
Arakhsamna
Kislimu
Tebetu
Shabatu

The month Adaru II was intercalated six times within the 19-year cycle but never in the year that was 17th of the cycle, when Ululu II was inserted. Thus, the Babylonian calendar until the end preserved a vestige of the original bipartition of the natural year into two seasons, just as the Babylonian months to the end remained truly lunar and began when the New Moon was first visible in the evening. The day began at sunset. Sundials and water clocks served to count hours.
 

Rosanne

I am little fish in muddy water trying to follow along. Please bear with my denseness.
the first 10 Sephiroth plus twelve Babylonian months = 22 images.
Do you mean they knew which month was which, wherever they were in their known world, by the Exaltations?
Or have I got that skew wiff?
I like the idea that each day started at Sunset.
Do you know what was the start exaltation for each new Year?
Was it Tsade? or am I out of my depth (yet again)? ~Rosanne
 

Fulgour

I added the exaltation because ;) I'm sneaky that way.
But the main thing about the exaltations is they simply
were assigned like sacred titles. There's no way all the
exaltations could ever occur simultaneously, and that's
a big clue: these are sacred designations, not aspects.

But for our Majors, it's one of those "flashing light" moments
when it clicks that there are 12 letters given to 12 months.
That's more than 1/2 the Trumps, and the pattern is shown.

What next? Aleph Mem Shin, beginning with 1 that means
The Magician, XIII, and The World. Bing bang boom! :laugh:

And since NOBODY has ever proven where the planets go,
YOU get to decide ~ and you can't ever be proven wrong.
 

venicebard

Fulgour said:
And since NOBODY has ever proven where the planets go,
YOU get to decide ~ and you can't ever be proven wrong.
'[G]et to decide'? 'can't be proven wrong'? Where is the truth in all this?

Fulgur, your list of Babylonian/Hebrew months is nice. But can you justify the phonetics? or the assignment of trumps to letters? Do you know where the rulership of the planets originates (I do)? Is all learned by rote from modern self-styled magicians, or can you argue its validity?

I would be interested myself to hear ideas on such things (though I correlate by a medieval number-tradition, not a modern speculation) - theories concerning exaltation of planets, for instance, which I've not explained. But is there no thirst for understanding? is it all a game? I ask this sincerely (with some consternation) and do not mean it in an unfriendly way, but out of concern for people whose interests lean in this direction yet who have no solid basis on which to build, since I can provide this (if anyone's interested). I am only trying to be of service, yet no-one wishes to engage me: I wish I knew why.

(If no-one responds to this, then I will leave the thread alone and stop 'polluting' it... but I wish somebody would respond.)

If anyone choose to consider the pattern I pointed out in my previous post on this thread, they will find powerful evidence for the trumps and Sefirot being related by a fundamental principle of reality that was known to Isaac Luria. This should go far towards settling the question I thought you originally raised, which was: are we justified in seeing any Kabbalah in tarot?

(I don't mean to sound combative, it is just me saying "quicksand ahead," stop and consider the course.)
 

Fulgour

hello venicebard

The "Tree of Life" is said to have been created by God,
for personal reasons we'll never know, within an inner
void... but God sneezed or something, and the model
crashed ~ which because of our material nature we are
now allowed to assist in reconstructing, if we so choose.

[Atzulit Briah Yetzirah Assiyah = Fire Air Water Earth]


venicebard said:
If anyone choose to consider the pattern I pointed out in my previous post on this thread, they will find powerful evidence for the trumps and Sefirot being related by a fundamental principle of reality that was known to Isaac Luria. This should go far towards settling the question I thought you originally raised, which was: are we justified in seeing any Kabbalah in tarot?
Assuming you agree there are 22 letters, where in the Tarot
do you place Aleph Mem Shin? Just a fair and friendly question.
 

Umbrae

Somewhere is it not written (help me out you scholarly types), “there are only ten sephiroth, not nine nor eleven…” or something like that.

But there are 22 majors.

So folks try to shove 22 cards into 10 pigeon holes – and once they get up to the wheel they start adding and, “Oh yes – 18, Il Crepuscolo – that equals 9 and refers to La Lampada Velata…”

No it does not!

18 or 19 equal 18 or 19! There are only ten cards in the ‘pip cards’ sequence. Not nine, not ten – perhaps ONLY the pip cards relate to sephora…

as for the question of, “are we justified in seeing any Kabbalah in tarot?”

Just looking at the earliest extant decks, we are informed by the art itself that there is an importance to the number 22 – and there is specific reference to the Hebrew alphabet – although not to Ivrut – which had not been invented yet.
 

jmd

The Sefer Yetzirah does indeed state that there are ten and not nine, ten and not eleven Sefirot.

How these may relate to the letters of the Hebrew Alphabet (of which there are twenty-two), or indeed how these may relate to the Atouts of the Tarot, is in more than one manner.

One of these is by suggesting twenty-two links or connections (the GD calls these 'paths') between the ten Sefirot. This is of course the manner in which the GD (and derivatives) make the assignation.

Another is to place these in, for example, descending order within the Sefirot, from one through to ten, and then find a means to intelligently make a different assignation to the twelve that follow. This is the manner suggested by, for example, Wirth.

A third is to allow for the twenty-two to be paired, each pair located in a path of ascent upon the the Sefirot, with the non-Sefirah of Da'at also been allocated a pair. Here, the twenty-two fall quite easily.

I agree with Umbrae that XVIII does NOT equal 9, and personally find this this type of 'reduction' to muddy, rather than clarify or illuminate. Still, it is possible to do this, and by the very nature of being able to bring together any two images and begin to develop a narrative, also be able to narrate sensible insights.
 

venicebard

Let's rock!

Fulgour said:
[Atzulit Briah Yetzirah Assiyah = Fire Air Water Earth]
Absolutely agree (with this order): they are the four wheels.

Assuming you agree there are 22 letters, where in the Tarot
do you place Aleph Mem Shin? Just a fair and friendly question.
alef - I LeBateleur
shin - XVI LaMaisonDieu
mem - VI L'Amoureux
...(by medieval bardic numeration)


jmd said:
How [Sefirot] may relate to the letters of the Hebrew Alphabet (of which there are twenty-two), or indeed how these may relate to the Atouts of the Tarot, is in more than one manner.
My first post this thread is an attempt to show how nature allocates them, and Luria. Nature defines 1 (Crown) as unity or number, 2 (Wisdom) as digital summation or 'numerology', and 3 (Understanding) as 'valence electron'.

One of these is by suggesting twenty-two links or connections (the GD calls these 'paths') between the ten Sefirot. This is of course the manner in which the GD (and derivatives) make the assignation.
This aspect has not yet yielded to me, though the connecting lines on the Tree called paths are older than GD. The letters may be joined to the paths as Paul Foster Case and others place them, but the trump assignment must of course be corrected, thus trumps would not be in numerical order. Yet it is tempting to see an allocation where the mothers are the 3 horizontal paths, the doubles the 7 vertical ones, the simples the 12 diagonal ones, as some rabbis suggest. This mystery interests me especially because it may have relevance to the ordering of the Hebrew-Phoenician alef-bet, since this differs from calendar order (order of letters in very ancient ogam-consaine alphabet).

Another is to place these in, for example, descending order within the Sefirot, from one through to ten, and then find a means to intelligently make a different assignation to the twelve that follow. This is the manner suggested by, for example, Wirth.
I would follow nature (and Luria) in this (see above).

A third is to allow for the twenty-two to be paired, each pair located in a path of ascent upon the the Sefirot, with the non-Sefirah of Da'at also been allocated a pair. Here, the twenty-two fall quite easily.
I don't know this method. But it sparked an idea in me. There is distortion suggested by tree-mythology's pointing to polarities 10-11, 9-12, and 8-13 whereas things started with 1-21, 2-20, 3-19: could it be that after primordial pairing of the first three the breaking-of-the-vessels causes the other 7 reflections to shift down one, leaving 18 to stand alone for Da'at? Da'at becomes the 4th upon completion of the Great Work or tikkun ('restoration'), which alters the central pillar from 1-[D]-6-9-10 to 1-4-7-10. Methinks LeMat can't be a Sefirah: it has no number to link it to any.

Remember, there may be more than one way to fit letters to Sefirot correctly, as there are, after all, four Trees.