1234 isn't 0123 (or is it?)

Umbrae

Umbrae said:
We have the following subjects on Zero.

Zero as a concept
Zero as a placeholder (4 Tarot Cards or 4 things is different then the abstract concept of ‘Four”).
Zero – the Glyph used to illustrate it.

01234 & 1234 are indeed, mathematically, conceptually, historically, very very different things.

:smoker:

Glad to see we are in agreement -- with the thesis of the topic.

BTW: my rulers begin with either 1mm or 1/64 th of an inch. I do have a micrometer, but alas, when set to 0, there is no space between the anvil and the spindle.
 

Rosanne

My neighbour cannot count with his fingers to ten- he has only one hand with five fingers. He says he lives Zero! To indicate nothing is wrong he waves his stump- a very graphic nothing it is too! ~Rosanne
 

Fulgour

Abs-0-lutely!

Umbrae said:
Sounds like we are confusing cardinal with ordinal.
I don't think anyone feels they have to forget about
Zero when they read and study their Tarot cards...

But there are people who keep trying (unsuccessfully)
to change the Tarot by emphasising the number Zero.

Zero is not one of the 22 Major Arcana cards, rather it's
is a convenient way to designate the unnumbered Fool.

Un-numbered (not "counted" as Zero) says it all here,
but counting Zero is what is being done by Zero=One.

Saying Zero is "first" is a cop out, since The Fool has no
official position in the sequence... other than Letter 22.

Counting Zero as First, and therefore as if number One,
changes ALL 22 of the Tarot Majors and it ain't Kosher.

1 2 3 4 IS NOT 0 1 2 3
 

Umbrae

Fulgour said:
Zero is not one of the 22 Major Arcana cards, rather it is a convenient way to designate the unnumbered Fool.

Un-numbered (not "counted" as Zero) says it all here, but counting Zero is what is being done by Zero=One.

Counting Zero as First, and therefore as if number One, changes ALL 22 of the Tarot Majors and it ain't Kosher.
I agree with the above (and most of the rest of your post).

In my world-view The Fool is unnumbered which allows the majors to be both a cardinal set and more than one ordinal set. The Fool is free to roam about.

Placing a 0 onto The Fool pegs him to the beginning of one zeroth number set. Removing the 0, allows it to remain at the beginning of the same zeroth number set, and a number set placing The Fool in either twenty-first or twenty-second of a sequence.

Due to the nature of Trickster/Shin correlations I prefer The Fool = Shin or twenty-first in the order. In the Judaic culture and tradition, Aleph does not equal 0. Aleph = 1.

Once a 0 is printed, possibilities diminish.



:smoker:
 

Ross G Caldwell

Fulgour said:
I don't think anyone feels they have to forget about
Zero when they read and study their Tarot cards...

But there are people who keep trying (unsuccessfully)
to change the Tarot by emphasising the number Zero.

And there were people who tried - successfully - to change the Tarot by putting numbers on the trumps.

The earliest trumps are unnumbered. They had to be memorised. The game - the play - is memory based. The numbers "fix" them, but they do not add to their depth.

Nevertheless, the numbers are useful to historians, to trace the development of the "fixes", and hence the ideas about the trumps.

Zero is not one of the 22 Major Arcana cards, rather it's
is a convenient way to designate the unnumbered Fool.

Agreed. Although, as the game spread, some players invented games where the Fool was actually the lowest card (not a moveable nothing, but actually lower than the Bagatto), and some put the number "XXII" on him.

Un-numbered (not "counted" as Zero) says it all here,
but counting Zero is what is being done by Zero=One.

Saying Zero is "first" is a cop out, since The Fool has no
official position in the sequence... other than Letter 22.

Not sure I agree with that. I think the original idea was 21 trumps, with one outside the sequence who could be used in place of any other card, but still counted for the score of the player (careful not to confuse this with the Joker, as a "wild card").

He is "grace".

Counting Zero as First, and therefore as if number One,
changes ALL 22 of the Tarot Majors and it ain't Kosher.

Certainly. I don't think the Hebrew alphabet was a consideration in the design of the trumps - either number or image.
 

Rosanne

Ross G Caldwell said:
Certainly. I don't think the Hebrew alphabet was a consideration in the design of the trumps - either number or image.
I like that thought! ~Rosanne
 

Rosanne

Ross G Caldwell said:
Glad to hear it! Why's that?
....Because I think that the coincedental connection between Jewish Mystic thought and Tarot came much much later and I think the designed Game of Tarot was in a Christian mindset- so there would be a relationship, would there not? Not numbered though. I think we get letters and numbers mixed up. ~Rosanne
 

Fulgour

Hey, check this out! Aleph is for...

I have always imagined the possibility of a group
of friends casually admiring a new pack of cards
printed with the alphabet on them and wondering
if anybody else realised it was truly a Phoenician
map of the Universe... and then they all doodled.