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8 of Cups -- Indolence

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I see the 7 of Cups as a series of choices available to you. You have reached that crossroad where you can make a decision. The 8 of cups reflects that maybe you made the wrong decision and since you have, walk away. The positive is in the reversed card where it says you might try again.
I have never viewed the 7 of cups as debauchery ! Even if it is a wild party you can always leave. You make the choice. In the 8 of cups he has chosen to walk away because there may be another recourse but he has either not thought of it or doesn't care.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memries
I see the 7 of Cups as a series of choices available to you. You have reached that crossroad where you can make a decision. The 8 of cups reflects that maybe you made the wrong decision and since you have, walk away. The positive is in the reversed card where it says you might try again.
I have never viewed the 7 of cups as debauchery ! Even if it is a wild party you can always leave. You make the choice. In the 8 of cups he has chosen to walk away because there may be another recourse but he has either not thought of it or doesn't care.
Of course, in the Thoth deck, the 7 of Cups is titled Debauchery... The 8 of Cups is named Indolence. By and large, the Thoth pips seem to present a really different kind of energy than some of the RWS decks. I have been working with ED's, not reversing the Thoth cards as they don't seem to speak as clearly to me when I reverse them.

J
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julien
Mmm... I think that's right... But what is the "good" in the card -- that is, given surrounding cards, when would Indolence have a positive aspect?
[...]
Is it possible that the only way to reach the Happiness of the 9 of Cups is by experiencing the Indolence of the 8? So that you have to consciously choose to experience that 9 moment?
I think the positive aspect w/8 is that you recognize the dream is dead or the party's not happening etc. and you can leave it. Whereas in 7, you're a bit sucked in (but then, it's more fun w/7).
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Originally Posted by isthmus nekoi
Whereas in 7, you're a bit sucked in (but then, it's more fun w/7).
Yeah, no kidding, huh? Much more fun to be in the midst of debauchery...

I think the word "indolence" suggested to me initially that there was no hope of getting out of the slog -- also, just the idea of not caring to such a degree... I think I will have to always remember with this card that indolence need not last.

Thank you all for helping me with this!
Julien
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julien
I think I will have to always remember with this card that indolence need not last.
That's what I think too. This card seems so lazy, stagnant, and lifeless. But if you look you can see pale light on the horizon that is reflecting off the underside of the clouds.

The astrological attribution of Saturn in Pisces isn't too hot either. But Pisces is ruled by Jupiter, the planet of expansion and change, another indication that Indolence is only a temporary state of affairs.
But Saturn gives you a clue how to get out of the swamp of Pisces....WORK!!! Pull your socks up, grab yourself by the collar and get up off your backside and show the world what you're made of ........ if only you could find the energy..... urgh..... maybe tomorrow....
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As an addition to the above.....

Crowley changed many of the Golden Dawn names of the cards, the 8 of Cups being one. The original G.D. title was Abandoned Success.
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He changed all the two word names.
So that they would all be just one word.

I like both sets of names. But the GD ones are a bit repetitive.
This sort of sucess and that sort of sucess... You know?

I don't know what he had against two words though.
Maybe he thought they wouldn't fit on the cards right.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lillie
I don't know what he had against two words though.
Maybe he thought they wouldn't fit on the cards right.
I think it is helpful to know the original titles, but I also think that some of Crowley's replacements are much better than the G.D. originals. For example the 5 of Cups - Loss in pleasure. Crowley's - Disappointment is much more to the point.

As far as the 8 of Cups is concerned I think Indolence is still an improvement, even though the old G.D. title isn't too bad. Abandoned Success seems just a little too specific to me. Whereas Indolence could mean that, but doesn't necessarily have to because it has a much broader meaning.
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I agree.
I love some of the words Crowley uses.
Indolence and Debauch are two of my favourites.
They are both such wonderful words.

I've always found it fascinating to look at the original GD titles, and compare them to Crowleys.
See how they differ.
As you say, abandoned sucess is quite a different kettle of fish to Indolence.
Indolence would include abandoned sucess, but so much more as well.

For me this card is very much one of not being bothered.
and sometimes it's a good thing.
there are some things that we ought not be bothered about, times where it is a good thing to sit back, relax and put your feet up and say, 'f*** that for a game of soldiers, I can't be bothered!'
It would also work in the normal, negative way too. either not bothering to do something I could do or ought to do, or giving up half way through.
But I do find there is a good, positive aspect to this card as well.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lillie
Indolence and Debauch are two of my favourites.
I think everyone likes Debauch and Indolence.
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