Historic Tarot : What We Do NOT Know.

Rosanne

in 2008 Cerulean wrote this...
"The enlarged pack was soon named carte da trionfi (trump cards, but literally meaning "triumph cards"), probably after the poem I Trionfi by Petrarch, and this was also the name of the game played with them. The word tarocco ("tarot") came into use later on, being found in written sources only as of the early 16th century.
In this statement seems to be the implied words that carte da trionfi and the tarocco speak of the same thing. So really after these latterly posts it is still something we do not know.
Or at least there are different views on it.
So there appear to be different themes in trionfi at the time...so it seems to me that it is only serendipitous that what we call Tarot today (at least at the beginning) were the images that captured the hearts of the card playing public, and became the standard.
I wonder why?
So many 'do not know's'
~Rosanne
 

Rosanne

Perhaps the game was fun.

CED
well if they were trionfi they were trick or trumping games. My card is bigger than your card type of thing. So do you think these particular images of trick taking were more fun?
There is this drollness going on and I have always thought them somewhat satirical. If...IF the Popesse was important (as Faith or Prudence or Mrs Pope), why is she only one step away from the fairground scam man?
Oh that's right we do not know the rules of the game.
~Rosanne
 

Richard

......IF the Popesse was important (as Faith or Prudence or Mrs Pope), why is she only one step away from the fairground scam man?
Oh that's right we do not know the rules of the game.
~Rosanne
The trumps were not numbered in the earlier decks, so was there a hierarchy of trumps? I think probably not, but I know nothing about the game. So this raises the question: When and why did the trumps assume a fixed ordering, such as in the TdM? (Yes, I'm serious, Rosanne. :D)
 

Rosanne

from Tarotpedia
The idea of trumps appears to be a European invention which first appeared in the 1420s, in the German game of Karnöffel. Tarot was probably created 10-15 years later, around 1440, somewhere in northern Italy. The earliest surviving Milanese Tarot decks and Ferrarese references to Tarot both come from that period. As noted, the Tarot deck consisted of a regular 56-card deck, augmented with a hierarchy of 22 allegorical trump cards. This created the standard 78-card Tarot deck, originally referred to as carte da trionfi, cards with trumps. Each trump triumphed over (trumped) the lower-ranking trumps in the manner of the popular trionfi motif, which also appeared in art, literature, religious processions, festival pageants, and so on.

The subjects pictured on the allegorical cards appear to have been standardized from the beginning. The vast majority of all Tarot decks in the 15th through 17th centuries share that design, and the occasional variants all appear to be derived from that archetypal standard. The series of images was similar to cycles of didactic Christian art of that era, most notably, the Triumph of Death and Dance of Death works popular from the time of the Black Death in the mid-14th century.

Tarot quickly became popular and spread in northern Italy, with Milan, Bologna, and Ferrara being early centers of the game. Richly painted decks with gold and silver leaf backgrounds were commissioned by the wealthy, while printed decks were used by commoners and nobles alike. (A record from 1436 indicates that the d'Este court at Ferrara had their own printing press for making cards.) The sequence of the trumps was altered in minor ways as Tarot spread to new locales, and the iconography was also varied somewhat. Moreover, a few complete redesigns are known, such as the classicized Sola Busca deck and the literary Boiardo deck, but they were dramatic exceptions. Changes of iconography, whether simplifying the original designs or conflating the Tarot images with other subject matter, usually left the underlying standard subjects recognizable.

Ross Caldwell said this...
Don't forget the Steele Sermon, which lists the standard trumps and calls them ludus triumphorum. The date of the sermon is not certain, but those who have studied it date it to well within the 15th century.
I prefer the idea of a gradual increase in trumps. Preference is not known fact of course.
~Rosanne
 

conversus

well if they were trionfi they were trick or trumping games. My card is bigger than your card type of thing. So do you think these particular images of trick taking were more fun?
There is this drollness going on and I have always thought them somewhat satirical. If...IF the Popesse was important (as Faith or Prudence or Mrs Pope), why is she only one step away from the fairground scam man?
Oh that's right we do not know the rules of the game.
~Rosanne

This isn't history anymore, but i do recall that the earliest collections of trionfi were unnumbered. perhaps a big part of the fun was providing a good back story to support why my card trumps your card. The numbers may have come later for a less articulate crowd?

however if the game was not fun--it wouldn't get remembered. That has to be part of the historical conversation.

sorry for the double post earlier--don't know how to make one go away.

CED
 

Rosanne

however if the game was not fun--it wouldn't get remembered. That has to be part of the historical conversation.

CED
It seems (in regards to the sequence) that it was known and did not need to be numbered.
But you are right re your quote.
 

Ross G Caldwell

The court cards aren't numbered either. Yet their ranking is always known. The ranking is symbolic, just like the trumps.
 

Rosanne

I was wondering how much credence is given to this statement....
The origin of the word "tarot" may be derived from the Arab word turuq
meaning “four ways”.
because the development of a name from Trionfi to Tarrochi seems if it is a NOT KNOWN

~Rosanne
 

The crowned one

I suppose it is no different then a word like "poker" another popular card game. Conjecture says it is might be French from" poque"... But who knows. Others say :German "poken" to brag, play, Middle Dutch "poken" to bluff I believe? The title of the game of tarot falls into this sort of gray category for me.