Numerology for the pips

sravana said:

If I add the elements to what you've posted above, I get this:

1 (fire/choleric/Sun).........10 (earth/melancholic/Sun)
2 (water/phlegmatic/Moon/Mars).........9 (air/sanguine/Mars/Moon)
3 (air/sanguine/Jupiter)..........8 (water/phlegmatic/Jupiter)
4 (earth/melancholic/Saturn/Sun)........7 (fire/choleric/Saturn/Moon)
5 (air/sanguine/Mercury)........6 (water/phlegmatic/Venus)

I quite enjoy the symmetry of your model (that diagram is awesome), but I don't see some of the elemental/planetary correspondences, particularly when I equate the elements to the humors.

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Hi sravana,

Yes. Blatant contradictions abound in these matters, especially when planets are involved. Saturn is the natural enemy of Venus, yet is exalted in her house (Libra), Mars rules both the day and evening triplicities of Cancer, yet is in his Fall within the sign, Fiery Mars rules, watery Scorpio, ivy is ruled by Jupiter because it spreads, but also by Saturn for its dark color and association with dark places and decay, garlic is ruled by fiery Mars for its stinging taste, but by the watery Moon for its shape and color, etc., etc..

Things have different aspects to their nature:

Agrippa teaches us that 1, 4, and 10 have some quality that is like the Sun, hence fiery. The Alchemists show us 1=Fire, 2=Water, 3=Air, 4=Earth. The Pythagoreans reveal that the 10 shares some qualities of the 1 (1 + 0 = 1), and also some qualities of the 4 (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10). So, if we judge these ancient opinion to be worthy, we can deduce that a 10 has some qualities that are solar/fiery, and some qualities that are earthy. I see these not so much as contradictions but as revelations on to the subtle nature of things, specifically the number 10.

All this of course begs the question, "Which do we use in a card reading?" Going back to our garlic, if we are talking flavor, its Martial (fire), if we're talking shape and color, it Lunar (water). The qualities are not so clear cut with numbers obviously, but, going back to our 10, if we understand why and what aspect of the 10 is solar, and why and what aspects of the 10 are earthy, we can see which of these aspect applies to our querent's question, and judge accordingly.

Or you could just use your original correlations you've worked out. They look pretty 'do-able' too. I may give 'em a whirl myself.

Melanchollic said:

Hi sravana,

Yes. Blatant contradictions abound in these matters, especially when planets are involved. Saturn is the natural enemy of Venus, yet is exalted in her house (Libra), Mars rules both the day and evening triplicities of Cancer, yet is in his Fall within the sign, Fiery Mars rules, watery Scorpio, ivy is ruled by Jupiter because it spreads, but also by Saturn for its dark color and association with dark places and decay, garlic is ruled by fiery Mars for its stinging taste, but by the watery Moon for its shape and color, etc., etc..

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Contradictions, indeed! Now that you spell it out I find myself rather boggled.
So I guess the issue is to go with what makes the most sense to one, eh?

Melanchollic said:

Things have different aspects to their nature:

Agrippa teaches us that 1, 4, and 10 have some quality that is like the Sun, hence fiery. The Alchemists show us 1=Fire, 2=Water, 3=Air, 4=Earth. The Pythagoreans reveal that the 10 shares some qualities of the 1 (1 + 0 = 1), and also some qualities of the 4 (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10). So, if we judge these ancient opinion to be worthy, we can deduce that a 10 has some qualities that are solar/fiery, and some qualities that are earthy.

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AH! Now I see how they got were they did with it. Fascinating.

Melanchollic said:

I see these not so much as contradictions but as revelations on to the subtle nature of things, specifically the number 10.

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And of course, this Virgo wants things to be clear-cut. Must learn to deal with contradiction!

Melanchollic said:

All this of course begs the question, "Which do we use in a card reading?" Going back to our garlic, if we are talking flavor, its Martial (fire), if we're talking shape and color, it Lunar (water). The qualities are not so clear cut with numbers obviously, but, going back to our 10, if we understand why and what aspect of the 10 is solar, and why and what aspects of the 10 are earthy, we can see which of these aspect applies to our querent's question, and judge accordingly.

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I'd say that the fiery part of the 10 has to do with the return to the 1 - the part that is the beginning of the next cycle. The earthy part of the 10 is the part that is 'finished' - the end of the cycle. Makes sense to me.

Melanchollic said:

Or you could just use your original correlations you've worked out. They look pretty 'do-able' too. I may give 'em a whirl myself.

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Not sure what to do with Virgo and Gemini... in fact, not sure if I want to do the signs at all. But it does help me see the difference in the 3's Jupiter and the 8's Jupiter, that's all...

sravana said:

I'd say that the fiery part of the 10 has to do with the return to the 1 - the part that is the beginning of the next cycle. The earthy part of the 10 is the part that is 'finished' - the end of the cycle. Makes sense to me.

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That's kind of how I see it too.

The 10 is great. It's arising shows us how everything is a cycle, it's relation to the 1 hinting at something beyond just materiality, a 'one' behind the promise of 'many'. The fire/earth of the 1/10 share the DRY power, which is formation and endurance, exactly the power the 10 would need as it ushers in the continuum of the many.

Request:

Bumping this thread in the hopes that Mel (Melanchollic) will at sometime post his 'elemental' meanings for the TdM pip & court cards. See his description here of the Queen Cups = "Reine de Coupes (Queen of Cups) - how may it be read?":

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=1747353&postcount=7

In my book, this is more meaningful (and historical) than the usual 'modern' divinatory meaning and is derived from the four Humours plus Astrological and Alchemic elements - all of which tie in very well indeed.

Now, I do know that writing out a great list of 56 card meanings can be a pain-in-the-bum, but perhaps a couple at a time might be possible...? Mel?

I don't believe I'm the only person who would greatly appreciate this - I'm just the only one who's saying so (at this point in time).

Power to your pen Mel,

Bee

Yeah, Mel! You promised us! (I think...)

If I'm going to read with the TdM or Soprafino, I don't want to be doing the "Mars in Geburah" thing for the 5s.

yeah, i'm still back here soaking in it, too... just haven't felt like i grok enough to actually contribute yet.

it'll come around on the guitar again, i hope. and thanks to bernice for pointing to the "how may it be read" post!

(because of frelkins' casual mention of a "+1" designation, i'm starting to think of adding dice readings to my tarot, though. heh.)

Yes.... but where has Frelkins got to?

Bee

Bernice said:

Bumping this thread in the hopes that Mel (Melanchollic) will at sometime post his 'elemental' meanings for the TdM pip & court cards...

In my book, this is more meaningful (and historical) than the usual 'modern' divinatory meaning and is derived from the four Humours plus Astrological and Alchemic elements - all of which tie in very well indeed.


Bee

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I like them a lot too!

I have pretty much compiled such a list, as best as any "definitive" meaning can be pinned down to specific cards. I see each card more as a tendency to react a certain way, than as a specific 'eternal' principle. Each situation requires you to redefine the cards meaning as its applies to the situation, keeping the general 'frame' of the cards 'energy pattern'.

Posts #97 and #98 of this thread (and my post about which cards are benefic and malefic by suit and number, wherever that is?) really show my whole method of deducing meaning.

I will post my thoughts though, since they show at least some aspects to how these elemental and mathematical energies might manifest themselves, though they certainly won't be definitive. I try to avoid definitive, and keep the possibilities fluid.

I'll start a 'Mel's Pips and Courts' thread in a day or two. And for these efforts I will require homemade baked goods of any and all variety! Deal?

brownies, pound cake, or apple crisp?

stefficus said:

brownies, pound cake, or apple crisp?

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OH!! APPLE CRISP!!