Parzival
Rosanne said:
The Pope a Hierophant?
Teheuti
Yes - even though he says the Hierophant is not Inspiration. Waite does this often because his style is primarily to collect evidence of traditions and meanings, at the same time that he gives us his opinion of them, while leaving it up to us as to who and what to follow. I appreciate this characteristic in him. He's saying that inspiration is a traditional meaning, and it certainly can be used in readings, although in his text he makes clear that is not what he considers the deepest import of the card.Frank Hall said:
To Waite this is not what a Hierophant is. Waite doesn't say he is institution but, rather, "He is the channel of grace belonging to the world of institution." He represents the teachings of organized religion. In actual readings I find that the card often represents people who give guidelines according to a "Big Book." On several occasions, therefore, it has referred to building inspectors who require adherence to the laws contained in the building codes - even when the inspector knows that an illegal composting toilet might be better for everyone concerned.
*We* need to do the above - not the Hierophant. The Hierophant is a ROLE not a person. His role is to stand at the gates, not in the inner sanctuary. However, Crowley & Harris did a good job of expressing where the teachings of the Hierophant should come from - by overlaying a shadowy child and priestess over/within his body. As Angie Arrien interpreted this: "The Hierophant should speak from his heart with the innocence of a child and from the wisdom of the High Priestess." Nevertheless, his *role* is speaker, and the true mysteries can never be spoken (because they can only be experienced).
Mary
tantricknite
Excellent posts teheuti... In the Rider-Wate deck when you look at the Heirophents face it kinda looks like the Dali Lama!!!!!!!!!!
catboxer
It looks to me like Waite simply appropriated the old image and gave it an occult-sounding new name.
All the old 17th- and 18th-century Italian and Marseilles decks show pretty much the same figure, with the difference that the old Popes are generally seen in three-quarter view, facing either right or left, and Waite's Hierophant is facing straight forward. All the other elements are identical, right down to the three-bar cross.
Tantricknite said this figure looks sort of like the Dali Lama. That's a possibility, but to me it looks not quite human, like some sort of stone idol. I can't tell if that's intentional or if it's just badly drawn. This is not one of Smith's better pictures.
The new names given to this card and to trump #2 convey Waite's attempt to imbue the cards with pre-Christian characteristics, thus implying the great antiquity of pre-Christian origins.
As usual, Waite's commentary on this Hierophant/Pope is obscure and confusing. "He has been usually called the Pope," says Waite, "which is a particular application of the more general office that he symbolizes," although what that more general office might be is left for the reader to guess at.
In his second paragraph Waite entirely forgets about this Hierophant stuff and gets into his indignant mode, and starts throwing little barbs at the Pope in Rome. "...it may so happen," says the old moralist, "that the pontiff forgets the significance of this his symbolic state and acts as if he contained within his proper measures all that his sign signifies or his symbol seeks to shew forth." As before, what his sign signifies, and what, exactly, his symbol seeks to shew forth, are left to the reader to ponder.
All the old 17th- and 18th-century Italian and Marseilles decks show pretty much the same figure, with the difference that the old Popes are generally seen in three-quarter view, facing either right or left, and Waite's Hierophant is facing straight forward. All the other elements are identical, right down to the three-bar cross.
Tantricknite said this figure looks sort of like the Dali Lama. That's a possibility, but to me it looks not quite human, like some sort of stone idol. I can't tell if that's intentional or if it's just badly drawn. This is not one of Smith's better pictures.
The new names given to this card and to trump #2 convey Waite's attempt to imbue the cards with pre-Christian characteristics, thus implying the great antiquity of pre-Christian origins.
As usual, Waite's commentary on this Hierophant/Pope is obscure and confusing. "He has been usually called the Pope," says Waite, "which is a particular application of the more general office that he symbolizes," although what that more general office might be is left for the reader to guess at.
In his second paragraph Waite entirely forgets about this Hierophant stuff and gets into his indignant mode, and starts throwing little barbs at the Pope in Rome. "...it may so happen," says the old moralist, "that the pontiff forgets the significance of this his symbolic state and acts as if he contained within his proper measures all that his sign signifies or his symbol seeks to shew forth." As before, what his sign signifies, and what, exactly, his symbol seeks to shew forth, are left to the reader to ponder.
Parzival
catboxer said:
I've excerpted a few key passages from this excellent post. I think there is purpose behind Waite's mix of image and name. A person in the role of the Head of a Church cannot be a Hierophant, or possibly needs to be so. Does the Church-Father lead by being inspired and inspiring, or does he lead by dogmatic fixations? (Maybe Popes need to become Hierophants, even if this is impossible.) Is there, for him, a choice, or is he bound to his role without possibility of a deeper vision? Only a closed role, or possibility of Self-transformation? Aren't we all Popes and/or Hierophants in our little local lives?
From Banzhoff's Tarot and the Journey of the Hero : "The heart of the [Hierophant's] instruction is shown by the blessing hand of The High Priest: the extended fingers stand for the visible world... while the two bent fingers represent the invisible....[Only] those who direct their attention to both can grasp what is essential, the meaning." So, Pope, external, exoteric; Hierophant, internal, esoteric.
NightWing
Pontiff
I read the above posts with interest.
Something else A.E.Waite was aware of, but we are less so today, is that one of the Pope's many titles is "Pontifex Maximus", usually translated as "Supreme Pontiff". This title was used by the pagan high priests of ancient Rome for centuries, and eventually was a civic title given to Julius Caesar, Augustus, and the Roman Emperors until Constantine legalised Christianity.
As the Roman Empire in western Europe waned in the 4th and 5th centuries C.E., this title of high priest devolved on the Pope in Rome. It refers literally to the idea that the office holder is in himself a "bridge" (pont) between worlds, ours and that of the divine. His function is that of a 'go-between', carrying prayers and offerings to the god(s), and transmitting the divine wishes to the people; in some sense speaking for the god(s).
For some 1500 years then, the Pope has also been the Roman High Priest, and part of that role is to reveal the divine to the people. This is surely a "Hierophantic function". Christian scriptures and Catholic teachings speak of the Pope having "the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven" given directly by Christ (as in the Gospel of Matthew, ch.16, verse 19.)
One doesn't have to accept this as anything but history. But it does form part of the background of the RWS Hierophant image.
I read the above posts with interest.
Something else A.E.Waite was aware of, but we are less so today, is that one of the Pope's many titles is "Pontifex Maximus", usually translated as "Supreme Pontiff". This title was used by the pagan high priests of ancient Rome for centuries, and eventually was a civic title given to Julius Caesar, Augustus, and the Roman Emperors until Constantine legalised Christianity.
As the Roman Empire in western Europe waned in the 4th and 5th centuries C.E., this title of high priest devolved on the Pope in Rome. It refers literally to the idea that the office holder is in himself a "bridge" (pont) between worlds, ours and that of the divine. His function is that of a 'go-between', carrying prayers and offerings to the god(s), and transmitting the divine wishes to the people; in some sense speaking for the god(s).
For some 1500 years then, the Pope has also been the Roman High Priest, and part of that role is to reveal the divine to the people. This is surely a "Hierophantic function". Christian scriptures and Catholic teachings speak of the Pope having "the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven" given directly by Christ (as in the Gospel of Matthew, ch.16, verse 19.)
One doesn't have to accept this as anything but history. But it does form part of the background of the RWS Hierophant image.
Dulcimer
NightWing said:
Nice one concerning derivation of "pontiff".
However, the heirophant is someone who was/is responsible for the initiation rites to the sacred mysteries and an interpreter of esoteric knowledge to those who are worthy. Certainly not to the people.
The Keys were given by Christ to Peter which have symbolically been handed down through the ages from Pope to Pope. But Catholicism has more to do with Paul than with Peter
coeur
I do see the Hierophant in the place of the Pope (and I believe some decks do call the Hierophant the Pope). In my interpretation, I see the Pope in terms of post-Roman empire chaos. All civilization was in chaos in Europe, but the Pope was able to keep the people united and inspired through the promise of religion and eternal life free of worries in the next world. For me, the Pope suggests finding spiritual stability in a world that is constantly changing.
Dulcimer
I can't say I agree with that interpretation of history. The Catholic church, i.e the Pope, gathered power, wealth, and influence to itself for political reasons. There was great cruelty (the Inquisition), war (the Crusades), religious division (Protestantism, Puritanism, Lutherianism, etc), Machievelian intrigue (the Borges), and so on. The promise of eternal life or eternal damnation was the lot for the poor old peasant but the wealthy could buy their place in heaven.coeur said:
I see it more like taking control of the masses by propaganda and manipulation of our hopes and fears. Religion is the opium of the people and the Pope is the dealer (ok, a little glib).
tantricknite
Hirophant within the Golden Dawn..............
Wait was a member of the Golden Dawn and I think that influence played heavily in his deck.Within the Golden Dawn the Hierophant is the "Exponder of the Mysteries" the one who during the neophyte initiation administers the oath to the candidate as well as over sees the ceromony.He represents Osirus the slain and risen god of Egyptian mythology.The function of the Hierophant is to tie "The great above with that which is below".So we see a small simularity with the pope who acts as a kind of intercessor between God and man.I also seem to recall reading somewhere that Wait as a Christian mystic practiced his own kind of catholic eucarist a practice that would have gotten him burnt at the stake a few hundred years earlier.Since he saw himself as his own priest he obviously didn't see much need for the pope.To me the card can be about religion,education,marriage,secret societies,organizations ect. I don't see it as being about the Catholic church specifically.Also some earlier decks actually had a female pope....
Wait was a member of the Golden Dawn and I think that influence played heavily in his deck.Within the Golden Dawn the Hierophant is the "Exponder of the Mysteries" the one who during the neophyte initiation administers the oath to the candidate as well as over sees the ceromony.He represents Osirus the slain and risen god of Egyptian mythology.The function of the Hierophant is to tie "The great above with that which is below".So we see a small simularity with the pope who acts as a kind of intercessor between God and man.I also seem to recall reading somewhere that Wait as a Christian mystic practiced his own kind of catholic eucarist a practice that would have gotten him burnt at the stake a few hundred years earlier.Since he saw himself as his own priest he obviously didn't see much need for the pope.To me the card can be about religion,education,marriage,secret societies,organizations ect. I don't see it as being about the Catholic church specifically.Also some earlier decks actually had a female pope....
