Courts Body Language

ravenest

No I am not saying this is a mode of 'feminne reason' I'm saying that it is an emotional message.

It is an emotional message from " the card of reason, intellect and action" ?

Waite was a Freemason and there are many references to Freemasonary in the deck. He was also a Christian and there are many references to Christianity in the deck including the Chalice and the Fish. I'm sure you're aware of Sacred Geometry and its relation to Freemasonary.

Yes, obviously since I just posted ; " Freemasons (as well as numerous others in various locations and times all over the world) may use the vesica ... due to its symbolic geometric properties " ... but not its realtion via fish to the RW tarot
 

caridwen

It is an emotional message from " the card of reason, intellect and action" ?

My apologies for being so obtuse. The Page of Cups is not a card of "reason,intellect and action". I did not say that about the card but am obviously not expressing that very well. The Card is one of emotions as it is associated with water. Water is associated with the feminine. The Feminine is associated with the intuition, submission, the internal. The Masculine is associated with action, the external,the rational. The Left hand side is associated with the Feminine. The Right hand is associated with the Masculine. The Page is male and therefore associated with the masculine. Action is associated with the Masculine and the Page's right hand holds a chalice. We can assume therefore that there is going to be action due to the use of the Right hand which is associated with action and movement. The body posture is associated with movement and Pages are traditional Messengers. The Message therefore is emotional which is associated with the Feminine as Water is associated with the Feminine. Is the card Masculine? No the card is Water as it is Cups and therefore Feminine.


Yes, obviously since I just posted ; " Freemasons (as well as numerous others in various locations and times all over the world) may use the vesica ... due to its symbolic geometric properties " ... but not its realtion via fish to the RW tarot

My apologies for assuming you saw the relation which seems obvious to me. The chalice and fish appear to be a reference to the Vesica Piscis or Vessel of the Fish. The Chalice being the Vessel and the Fish the Fish. Perhaps Fletcher can say it better than me:

"The vesica piscis signifies the mediation of two distinct entities; the complementariness of polar opposites, as when two extremes complete and depend upon one another to exist. One circle may signify the breath of spirit, which is eternal; the other may signify the body physical, which is forever changing and adapting. The vesica piscis itself symbolizes that which mediates spirit; or the psyche or soul.”
Fletcher, Rachel (2004) Musings on the Vesica Piscis. Nexus Network Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2 pp. 95 – 98

The root three triangle (Square Root of Three to One) was used by the Freemasons especially in medieveal architecture and to build their temples. In fact Stirling wrote (William Stirling who wrote The Canon):

"It is known both to freemasons and architects that the mystical figure called the Vesica Piscis, so popular in the Middle Ages, and generally placed as the first proposition of Euclid, was a symbol applied by the masons in planning their temples."

And Dr Oliver,

"This mysterious figure Vesica Piscis possessed an unbounded influence on the details of sacred architecture; and it constituted the great and enduring secret of our ancient brethren. The plans of religious buildings were determined by its use; and the proportions of length and height were dependent on it..."

So what clues do we have here?

Vesica Pisces can be translated as Vessel of the Fish. The Page holds a Chalice (associated with the Holy Grail and the Vesica) with a fish popping out. We know that Waite was a Freemason and the Vesica was used in Freemason temples. The Chalice is a Circle and a Square (the ancient unity of heaven and earth).

In Fish and Water Symbols (1912), Norwood says:
http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2705&context=ocj

"Expressed mathematically the sea represented the whole and the fish or serpent the part—of divine intelligence. For a fish or serpent to emerge from the waters in the form of one of the numerous fish and serpent gods of antiquity, was equivalent to saying that individual intelligence proceeded and was evolved from the universal".

We can see this theme in the Cups, the Ace for example has an M (Mem - the sea) and perhaps a hieroglyphic wave or watermark. Again in the 5 of Pentacles another symbol is the Anchor (associated with the ark) in the stained glass window. We have a dolphin in the King of Cups an ancient symbol of the Soul.
 

Richard

........We can see this theme in the Cups, the Ace for example has an M (Mem - the sea) and perhaps a hieroglyphic wave or watermark......
The letter ה in the Golden Dawn Ace of Cups is the second letter of the Tetragrammaton יהוה. As such, it represents the element Water and the Supernal Mother (Binah). I suspect that the letter M is a blind for ה and may stand for Mother, but who knows for sure?

ETA. Quote from Book T re Ace of Cups: "The great Letter of the Supernal Mother is traced in the spray of the Fountain."
 

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caridwen

The letter ה in the Golden Dawn Ace of Cups is the second letter of the Tetragrammaton יהוה. As such, it represents the element Water and the Supernal Mother (Binah). I suspect that the letter M is a blind for ה and may stand for Mother, but who knows for sure?

I was talking about the Rider Waite deck http://www.learntarot.com/bigjpgs/cups01.jpg

Which does not have Binah on it as you can clearly see. It has what looks like a W which could in fact be an upside down M for Mem or Sea. Yes some have said Mary but that again relates it back to the Vesica.

It could also stand for Waite as has been speculated.

Mathers says,

The Ace of Cups is of Egyptian origin, which can be more easily seen in the Spanish Tarot. The figure, like an inverted M on its front, is all that remains of the Egyptian twin Serpents which originally decorated it. It represents the Waters of Creation in the first chapter of Genesis. It is the Symbol of the Power which receives and modifies.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/mathers/mtar01.htm

M (Sea) and N (fish) are also frequently used in the Freemasons. The W could stand for Womb which would correspond to the Chalice or Word (Womb of the Logos).
 

Richard

I was talking about the Rider Waite deck http://www.learntarot.com/bigjpgs/cups01.jpg

Which does not have Binah on it as you can clearly see. It has what looks like a W which could in fact be an upside down M for Mem or Sea. Yes some have said Mary but that again relates it back to the Vesica.

It could also stand for Waite as has been speculated.

Mathers says,


http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/mathers/mtar01.htm

M (Sea) and N (fish) are also frequently used in the Freemasons. The W could stand for Womb which would correspond to the Chalice or Word (Womb of the Logos).
Apparently you did not read my post.
 

caridwen

Apparently you did not read my post.

There is no Binah sign on the card.

There is speculation that the W stands for Waite.
Mem
Womb
Water
West
Mary
Word

or as Mathers says, Waters of Creation.

There is mention of Binah in the Book T (The great Letter of the Supernal Mother is traced in the spray of the Fountain) and yes it is depicted on other GD Aces just not here.
 

light2000

I was talking about the Rider Waite deck

Which does not have Binah on it as you can clearly see. It has what looks like a W which could in fact be an upside down M for Mem or Sea. Yes some have said Mary but that again relates it back to the Vesica.

Hi, i see the M Like lrichard said, maybe they didn't had that letter at the printer??!! who knows.

Now, i read on a book that the W is the W of Rider Waite. At the book says that waite choose that letter to be at that card to represent himself. I would love to remember which book i read that to post here but i can't remeber and already tried to find here at home but relly can't remeber.

At a Hajo Banzhaf book he says the M reversed means mistery or mercy, can be reached for the eprson that drinks from the cup.
 

Richard

I think it would be tacky for an upside down M to stand for Waite, or an M for Mary (since Waite tended to remove, not add, references to Christianity: for example, he changed the Popess to High Priestess and Pope to Hierophant.) Waite used blinds for other elements in the Golden Dawn minors, such as substituting a black cat for the leopard in the Queen of Wands. He was inspired by Mathers' deck, but he was walking a tightrope trying not to violate the GD oaths.
 

ravenest

My apologies for being so obtuse. The Page of Cups is not a card of "reason,intellect and action". I did not say that about the card but am obviously not expressing that very well.

I guess not .... and its still not clear as you say you didnt say that but ....

" The Page holds a chalice in his right hand which is the masculine hand and the card of reason, intellect and action."

thats why I originally asked what you meant by that ?
The Card is one of emotions as it is associated with water. Water is associated with the feminine. The Feminine is associated with the intuition, submission, the internal. The Masculine is associated with action, the external,the rational. The Left hand side is associated with the Feminine. The Right hand is associated with the Masculine.

Yeah thanks ... I realised that a 'while back'.

The Page is male and therefore associated with the masculine.

Is he ? I thought he was a representation of the Princesses in Book T ... but his GD oaths prevented him from naming them as such so he used the old titles as a cover (which seems to have been demonstrated aptly in these forum threads before). That makes the 4 courts actually, 2 male and 2 female ... the page is the final female energy of the suit ... YHVH .

Action is associated with the Masculine and the Page's right hand holds a chalice. We can assume therefore that there is going to be action due to the use of the Right hand which is associated with action and movement. The body posture is associated with movement and Pages are traditional Messengers. The Message therefore is emotional which is associated with the Feminine as Water is associated with the Feminine.

yes, that all seems okay in context.

Is the card Masculine? No the card is Water as it is Cups and therefore Feminine.

Even though you said ;

The Page is male and therefore associated with the masculine.

My apologies for assuming you saw the relation which seems obvious to me.

Ohhh ... there's no need to apologise. I did see all those obvious relationships (years ago) what I am questioning is the bits that didnt make sense to me when I read them ... like I just outlined above. Hmmm ... I thought I outlined that in my first questions?

The chalice and fish appear to be a reference to the Vesica Piscis or Vessel of the Fish. The Chalice being the Vessel and the Fish the Fish. Perhaps Fletcher can say it better than me:

"The vesica piscis signifies the mediation of two distinct entities; the complementariness of polar opposites, as when two extremes complete and depend upon one another to exist. One circle may signify the breath of spirit, which is eternal; the other may signify the body physical, which is forever changing and adapting. The vesica piscis itself symbolizes that which mediates spirit; or the psyche or soul.”
Fletcher, Rachel (2004) Musings on the Vesica Piscis. Nexus Network Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2 pp. 95 – 98

Well, thats interesting ! Soul is generated from the intersection and overlapping with spirit and body? Not that I agree, but food for thought.

The root three triangle (Square Root of Three to One) was used by the Freemasons especially in medieveal architecture and to build their temples. In fact Stirling wrote (William Stirling who wrote The Canon):

"It is known both to freemasons and architects that the mystical figure called the Vesica Piscis, so popular in the Middle Ages, and generally placed as the first proposition of Euclid, was a symbol applied by the masons in planning their temples."

And Dr Oliver,

"This mysterious figure Vesica Piscis possessed an unbounded influence on the details of sacred architecture; and it constituted the great and enduring secret of our ancient brethren. The plans of religious buildings were determined by its use; and the proportions of length and height were dependent on it..."

Ummm yeah ... I already acknowledged that link with Freemasons and geometry posts back ... I dont need convincing, I already got that ... that wasnt the issue .
So what clues do we have here?

Vesica Pisces can be translated as Vessel of the Fish. The Page holds a Chalice (associated with the Holy Grail and the Vesica) with a fish popping out. We know that Waite was a Freemason and the Vesica was used in Freemason temples. The Chalice is a Circle and a Square (the ancient unity of heaven and earth).

In Fish and Water Symbols (1912), Norwood says:
http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2705&context=ocj

"Expressed mathematically the sea represented the whole and the fish or serpent the part—of divine intelligence. For a fish or serpent to emerge from the waters in the form of one of the numerous fish and serpent gods of antiquity, was equivalent to saying that individual intelligence proceeded and was evolved from the universal".

yes .... but what is all this about and how does it give significance to the card beyond what you said ... I thought your take on it; " The Message therefore is emotional which is associated with the Feminine as Water is associated with the Feminine,' was reasonable ... so whats all this 'Freemasonic' symbolism have to to with the meaning of the card ? Is it some type of Freemasonic emotional message connected to the feminine?

We can see this theme in the Cups, the Ace for example has an M (Mem - the sea) and perhaps a hieroglyphic wave or watermark. Again in the 5 of Pentacles another symbol is the Anchor (associated with the ark) in the stained glass window. We have a dolphin in the King of Cups an ancient symbol of the Soul.

And random symbols associated with traditions Wait was into in relation to my questions about your take on this card means .... ?
 

ravenest

I think it would be tacky for an upside down M to stand for Waite, or an M for Mary (since Waite tended to remove, not add, references to Christianity: for example, he changed the Popess to High Priestess and Pope to Hierophant.) Waite used blinds for other elements in the Golden Dawn minors, such as substituting a black cat for the leopard in the Queen of Wands. He was inspired by Mathers' deck, but he was walking a tightrope trying not to violate the GD oaths.



I cant help thinking (yet again) that if you want to use RW deck for readings ... go for it ... many have success. But if you want to get to the essence of this esoteric tradition of the west via tarot and you use Waite's deck, with all the outlined problems of it NOT talking straight, for the reason outlined ... then one is going to get confused and muddled. Just like Waite's system was.

As far as esoteric content go ... this deck is a dinosaur .

Time has moved on ... they are no longer concealed secrets ... they are freely available in the published GD and Thoth material ...and spoken about 'freely in the marketplace.'