Fulgour
thank you, kenji
Your answer is for me both eloquent and sufficient.kenji said:
Jodorowsky Camoin : Foot prints!
smleite
All this is very interesting, and in iconology the inversion of a symbol (if not the fruit of a mistake) is a very clear declaration of intentions… the “pro-Merovingian and anti-Carolingian origin of TdM”, as presented by Kenji after Tadahiro Onuma, is also an interesting issue. As to these marks being representations of the Trinity, which can be true whether they represent the heraldic symbol of ermine fur, a goose footprint, or a fleur-de-lis.
I tend to believe that all this layers of interpretation are true, since symbology (and very specifically in what relates to the TdM) is mostly inclusive; the hardest part of it is not deciding what is right or wrong, or what is there or not (everything we see is there), but how the various meanings and stratums interrelate, for following one will probably take us to the other, and deeper into the truth.
I tend to believe that all this layers of interpretation are true, since symbology (and very specifically in what relates to the TdM) is mostly inclusive; the hardest part of it is not deciding what is right or wrong, or what is there or not (everything we see is there), but how the various meanings and stratums interrelate, for following one will probably take us to the other, and deeper into the truth.
tmgrl2
Well said, re last posts about possible "trinity" afinity (couldn't resist that)...
I agree. That takes us back to the idea of quiet reflection and the reading of the card in the moment. I am beginning to trust this meditative reflection and what it calls up, now that I realize symbols, fairly ordinary and simple in their representation can have a myriad of meanings in the "holy instant."
Last night I read the bio of Pamela Colman Smith in Kaplans' Encycolpedia of Tarot, Volume III. I posted elsewhere about her roses and liles symbols, but as I think about this thread, I would say that PCS was largely one who used her "third ear."
Much of her art was drawn to music, especially Debussy.
terri
I agree. That takes us back to the idea of quiet reflection and the reading of the card in the moment. I am beginning to trust this meditative reflection and what it calls up, now that I realize symbols, fairly ordinary and simple in their representation can have a myriad of meanings in the "holy instant."
Last night I read the bio of Pamela Colman Smith in Kaplans' Encycolpedia of Tarot, Volume III. I posted elsewhere about her roses and liles symbols, but as I think about this thread, I would say that PCS was largely one who used her "third ear."
Much of her art was drawn to music, especially Debussy.
terri
kwaw
tmgrl2 said:
A bit like the lambda [the modern peace symbol]? In the 16th/17th century it was a common symbol of witchcraft. It was said the symbol was carved into the sole of a witches shoes so that others could follow the imprint to the sabbath. In pythogorean terms it was a symbol of the Golden Mean.
Kwaw
tmgrl2
kwaw said:
Of course, the peace symbol! I love it...
Also the Golden Mean...moving toward the perfection, but never reaching it....
terri
Rusty Neon
Re: some information
Interesting. Thanks, kenji.
As well, Alain Bocher states that lilies (French: lys/lis) can represent alchemical gold. Evola notes that alchemists referred to lead as 'inverted' gold. Maybe, then, the reversed fleurs-de-lys are alchemical symbolism. OK .... a bit of a stretch, I agree.
kenji said:
Interesting. Thanks, kenji.
As well, Alain Bocher states that lilies (French: lys/lis) can represent alchemical gold. Evola notes that alchemists referred to lead as 'inverted' gold. Maybe, then, the reversed fleurs-de-lys are alchemical symbolism. OK .... a bit of a stretch, I agree.
Rusty Neon
I've noticed that the ermine design also appears on a repeating- pattern basis as the design of the backs of the cards of the photoreproduction 1701 Dodal Tarot de Marseille published by Dusserre.
http://membres.lycos.fr/tarobat/mesjeux/dodal/dodal.htm
http://membres.lycos.fr/tarobat/mesjeux/dodal/dodal.htm
jmd
It was to the Dodal that I referred to when I wrote (in the post to which I link in my previous post) 'it is interesting to observe the obverse of some of the early decks. For some bear what appears as heraldic ermine, which bears striking similarity to the footprint of a bird...'.
I was reflecting on some alphabetical variants last night, and, in the chambers of the imaginative athanor, it became apparent that heraldic ermine is quite reminiscent of the Greek letter 'Y', sometimes referred to as the forked road, or the choice between the highway and the narrow path to the divine, or the Philosopher's letter. As such, it is one not for the populace, but for, rather, the few.
Even as ermine, of course, it is for the few, as it is again only for the few to understand the language of the bird/goose.
In some ways, it becomes increasingly a metaphorical pictorial representation that here is something for those who have eyes to see, and for those who have ears to hear.
Depicted as the obverse of some decks, it also indicates that the image has to be looked at in the right way (from the card back to the card front) in order to unveil that which is hidden.
Many will see the obvious imagery, but how may one begin to unveil that which is more deeply embedded?
I was reflecting on some alphabetical variants last night, and, in the chambers of the imaginative athanor, it became apparent that heraldic ermine is quite reminiscent of the Greek letter 'Y', sometimes referred to as the forked road, or the choice between the highway and the narrow path to the divine, or the Philosopher's letter. As such, it is one not for the populace, but for, rather, the few.
Even as ermine, of course, it is for the few, as it is again only for the few to understand the language of the bird/goose.
In some ways, it becomes increasingly a metaphorical pictorial representation that here is something for those who have eyes to see, and for those who have ears to hear.
Depicted as the obverse of some decks, it also indicates that the image has to be looked at in the right way (from the card back to the card front) in order to unveil that which is hidden.
Many will see the obvious imagery, but how may one begin to unveil that which is more deeply embedded?
Fulgour
tmgrl2 made that very same observation to me a few days ago...
in fact we'd been speciffically discussing a former thread of yours,
but still isn't that maybe something they use on lots of their decks
Fulgour
Mateus N. Carneiro da Cunha
from The Hermetic Garden by Mateus N. Carneiro da Cunha
Cript-Kabbale, in his beautiful and intelligent site ABC du Tarot de Marseille, shows how the language of the birds, initially rediscovered by Grasset d'Orcet and popularized through the works of Fulcanelli, was widely used in the Marseille cards (lame, card, in phonetic cabala yields l’âme, soul). This cabala consists in using the similar sound of different words to encrypt esoteric messages. This phonetic cabala was a widespread phenomenon both in Western esotericism and in Middle-Eastern Islamic esotericism.
http://criptkabbale.com/tarot/o0.htm
Cript-Kabbale accomplished a brilliant cabalistic analysis of the traditional French song Mon ami Pierrot. In this case, Pierrot yields Pie erre haut or 'The Magpie wanders in the High'... I wonder about the relation between this folk song with the Sufi text of Ferid ud-Din Attar, The Language (or Conference) of the birds, written in Persian... The date of its composition is near the date of the presumed appearance of the Tarot cards and also of the composition of this French song; geographically these events are not so distant, and the Persian text is also about the Magpie (in French, Pie) who is the central character of the story and who is also very important in the language of the birds system (or phonetic cabala). The relation or even the profound filiation between Medieval European Hermeticism and Muslim esotericism (and of course Muslim alchemy) is flagrant.
http://www.ojardimhermetico.com/port/02taro1.html
© Mateus N. Carneiro da Cunha
from The Hermetic Garden by Mateus N. Carneiro da Cunha
Cript-Kabbale, in his beautiful and intelligent site ABC du Tarot de Marseille, shows how the language of the birds, initially rediscovered by Grasset d'Orcet and popularized through the works of Fulcanelli, was widely used in the Marseille cards (lame, card, in phonetic cabala yields l’âme, soul). This cabala consists in using the similar sound of different words to encrypt esoteric messages. This phonetic cabala was a widespread phenomenon both in Western esotericism and in Middle-Eastern Islamic esotericism.
http://criptkabbale.com/tarot/o0.htm
Cript-Kabbale accomplished a brilliant cabalistic analysis of the traditional French song Mon ami Pierrot. In this case, Pierrot yields Pie erre haut or 'The Magpie wanders in the High'... I wonder about the relation between this folk song with the Sufi text of Ferid ud-Din Attar, The Language (or Conference) of the birds, written in Persian... The date of its composition is near the date of the presumed appearance of the Tarot cards and also of the composition of this French song; geographically these events are not so distant, and the Persian text is also about the Magpie (in French, Pie) who is the central character of the story and who is also very important in the language of the birds system (or phonetic cabala). The relation or even the profound filiation between Medieval European Hermeticism and Muslim esotericism (and of course Muslim alchemy) is flagrant.
http://www.ojardimhermetico.com/port/02taro1.html
© Mateus N. Carneiro da Cunha
