If you couldn't learn to read Lenormands "properly"

My point was this: The elitism evident in some posts is not conducive to free and open discussion of anything.

If one is using a Lenormand deck but is not following one of the "approved" reading methods, then one is, by definition, reading it as an oracle, not as a Lenormand, so where is the appropriate place to post? In an oracle forum?

I have other issues involving the imagery of Lenormand cards, since if you read the images, you are reading your own concoction, not Lenormand, according to one of the Lenormand experts. But this would be a topic for another thread.

My point is that "properly" is dependent on the approach one takes. It helps to be clear about one's approach. Asking for help in reading the cards in an oracular manner is asking for help in the oracular or symbolic or intuitive processes that can be applied to pretty much any deck--yes (Ana Luisa's suggestions above are an excellent example). Or one can share one's personal interpretations of the Lenormand cards derived from general divinatory and projective methods. I believe there are a series of discussions of the cards here from a year or two ago that are restricted to that view (traditional meanings are not to be valued any more than any other view of a card). I'm not sure how many cards were covered but the series can easily be resurrected.

Perhaps it would help simply to label new topics as 'traditional' or 'oracular' or personally projective. But it seems more reasonable to do this just when it's needed for clarity. (Intuition is equally a part of all these.)

I think it would be good to be able to post without intimidation from either purists or non-purists, the way it is usually (but not always) done in the Tarot forums.

I sometimes respond to posts in UTC from my (admittedly not very popular) esoteric perspective, whenever I think it may contribute to the OP's question. Usually it is accepted in the same spirit as the other (more intuitive) contributions. Occasionally, I like to think it may even open new avenues of thinking (Qabalistic, Alchemical, and Astrological) about the original post.

If Lenormand is a special case in which it is preferable to use one of the so-called standard Lenormand methods, then it should be described as such in Posting Rules. Elitism inserts an element of exclusivity, which really seems out of place on AT.

I assume, in this light, that Venus in an astrological chart can represent whatever I perceive - like sensing that the planet's physical characteristics of being hot, arid, sterile and poisonous-to-humans as metaphors of human behavior under its influence.

There are a whole series of topics on specific cards in which the strict traditionalists were asked to not take part. Once it was clear that was wanted, the traditionalists stayed out. It seems those topics would be a great thing to resurrect and continue. That is, if anyone is interested.

Moderator note:

The Posting Rules of the Lenormand Forum say:

Glass Owl said:

The Lenormand Forum is meant to be a place where all enthusiasts, of any level of experience to learn, share ideas, and discuss Lenormand topics such as:

• History
• Systems
• Reading techniques
• Reading mechanics such as the phrasing of questions
• Spreads, as well as the steps involved in reading with them
• Books
• Other resources, including videos and podcasts
• Card imagery and definitions
• Lenormand decks. Members are free to post their personal decks and can post links (including to their Kickstarter, Indiegogo, and/or personal sites) to exhibit their decks.

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Particularly, "all enthusiasts [...] share ideas and discuss Lenormand topics such as [...] systems, reading techniques, reading mechanics [...], card [...] definitions [...]."

There is no preference expressed in the Posting Rules for any particular set of techniques, mechanics, or card definitions. The emphasis in the Posting Rules is on learning, sharing, and discussion.

Lee, Lenormand Co-Moderator

PathWalker said:

My biggest problem comes as soon as you start to put together the combinations. Once you've got three cards, but you are looking at them forwards, backwards, top to bottom (I know you'd more for that) and if card A comes before card B it means this, but if it comes at the end of the row it means something different.!
And if I could manage it with 3, well maybe okay. But a 3x3 square - nope? I've melted into a puddle of lost paths and dead ends and my brain is dripping out of my ear. I have to have several sheets of paper, and write down anll the possible directions of reading, and so on. It's a stress, not a joy.

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l did have to chuckle at this PathWalker that is me to a T. l bought the blue owl lenormand but once l realised what was involved as you have stated, the cards have been hidden away never to see light of day
What has opened my mind a bit is reading all the posts here, they are so helpful and thank you. l may just dust my deck down again.

I thought this thread was a very friendly discussion! Lots of thoughtful suggestions for anyone looking for ideas on how to read Lenormand decks in ways other than the more standard methods. I didn't see any intimidation going on, and I was under the impression that the OP found it to be supportive and helpful.

Pathwalker was up front about the sort of practical help she was looking for (and how she wasn't interested in a methods debate), and I thought everyone responded in kind, sharing both advice and relatable stories!

Thoughtful said:

l did have to chuckle at this PathWalker that is me to a T. l bought the blue owl lenormand but once l realised what was involved as you have stated, the cards have been hidden away never to see light of day
What has opened my mind a bit is reading all the posts here, they are so helpful and thank you. l may just dust my deck down again.

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I've found that yes, I did write down all of the possibilities a couple of times. And I did pay attention to the order and row of the cards. But something amazing and exciting happened after doing this several times; I suddenly saw the cards and layout in a whole new way -- quite different than Tarot, for instance. It had reprogrammed my brain, as if new synapses were formed in modes I hadn't experienced before! Now I perceive the Lenormand cards in a whole new-to-me way. I now know what is going on immediately without having to go through all those steps, except occasionally when I feel stuck, and then I go back to basics.

But I came to Lenormand with the desire to learn new ways of divination from it, not just to read a different set of cards in my same old ways -- that was easy to do, but my old ways didn't expand my ability to "see" differently -- as I was seeking. I was looking for something that would push my divinatory abilities and train me in a "seeing" that was other than all the methods I had learned previously. I wanted to know what cartomancers a hundred or even two hundred years ago had discovered that had been largely lost to English-speaking readers. I needed training wheels for a time but when the training wheels came off (and they do!), I found it truly exhilarating.

So it really depends on what you are looking for: a pretty and intriguing new deck that you can use in place of other (often larger) decks picturing angels, fairies, animal or tarot figures? Something that feels old but is 'easier' than tarot? Something that allows you to be creative and make up your own stuff? Or something that requires learning a new language and approach and, as a result, teaches you to "see" in ways you never knew existed before? The Lenormand deck is different things to different people.

Thank you all for your continuing input here.

I confess I was probably looking for another way to read cards - without realising the huge difference in Lenormands. For now then I choose to stay mainly with tarots, which I love, and not try to read Lenormand as an oracle, because I don't like it like that either.

But I have kept one deck and maybe one day in the future I will feel differently, and be able to approach it, as Teheuti says, "...with the desire to learn new ways of divination from it, not just to read a different set of cards in my same old ways ..."

Thank you all for your various inputs, and I hope other folks find useful things here

Pathwalker.

I find that I get great readings using a two-card spread every day. They have pointed out some valuable lessons.