More curiosity...

Aeon418

If you want to restore the correct order of the Hebrew alphabet, you need a loop in a band of letters, not zodiacal signs.
You don't see several loops in the colour arrangements I posted? If it's coloured in Red it's out of sequence, i.e. looped. That applies to Card numerals, Hebrew letters, and zodiac signs.
 

Abrac

Michael, I see what you're saying. There's no reason whatsoever for there even to be a loop in the GD arrangement. The whole thing is rather pointless.
 

Aeon418

There's no reason whatsoever for there even to be a loop in the GD arrangement.
Exactly. The loop in the Golden Dawn diagram is only generated if you leave the Tarot numerals alone keeping Strength 11 and Justice 8.

The Golden Dawn switcheroo dispenses with the need for loops. But you've still got to solve the problem of the Bearded Lady on the card of Sovereign Reason spanning the Abyss.
 

Abrac

I suppose theoretically, if you kept Strength in the number 11 position and kept the Leo correspondence, and did the same thing with Justice, this would cause such a loop, but it's all mental gymnastics. The fact is, Strength is 8 and Justice 11, so it's irrelevant.

All Crowley would've had to do is switch the letters Tzaddi and Heh and the Zodiac would remain unaffected.
 

Aeon418

I suppose theoretically, if you kept Strength in the number 11 position and kept the Leo correspondence, and did the same thing with Justice, this would cause such a loop, but it's all mental gymnastics. The fact is, Strength is 8 and Justice 11, so it's irrelevant.
It all depends on which particular sequence you are intending to use. If the Hebrew order of emanations is given primacy then this naturally distorts the traditional order of the Trumps simply because Teth-Leo occurs earlier in the alphabet.

But if you are more interested in the story and alchemical motifs in the traditional Tarot numeral order, then the Hebrew has to take a back seat. But neither sequence is obviated by the other. It's just a temporary shifting of perspective. Two different card sequences communicating two different sorts of messages via slightly different card orders in one single deck of cards.
 

Abrac

Ahh, there it is. That's what Crowley did. In his deck, Lust is 11 and Adjustment is 8, but he kept the GD astrological correspondences. It's only Crowley's arrangement that causes a loop. My diagram's wrong. (Diagram has been updated)

But it doesn't really work on the other end since he left the Emperor number 4 and the Star 17, and since Tzaddi and He were transposed they end up not moving, so there's really no justification for a loop on that end. It looks like Crowley just did it.
 

Zephyros

Diagrams aside, I recommend actually making the band and twisting it around yourself. Some hands-on work does wonders, really it does.
 

Michael Sternbach

In the BoT, p. 278 there is a table with XVII corresponding to Aries, IV corresponding to Aquarius. So it looks like Crowley at one time was playing with these attributions, and this got into the BoT somehow. Astrologically speaking, these attributions are really doubtful, but for illustrating the issue further, if they were correct, then the Aquarius-Pisces-Aries loop would make sense the same way the Leo-Virgo-Libra loop does.
 

Zephyros

It does make sense, though, except that it makes sense according to a different way of making sense. Make sense?

The two loops are complimentary, and don't follow the same reasoning, yet work together to make a whole. Kind of like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
 

ravenest

Not quite :)

I have pnut butter and jelly sandwich all the time. This seems a rarer bird.

Or a magicians trick ;) What happens when we look at it sideways? Those two single loops in a circle dont gloop together at all like pnut and jelly, they are two separated constructs.

Look at them from the front - the superimposed view and they do.

Its been a while since we all discussed this :)

Aeon seems to be advocating a multi-use mental Swiss Army pocket knife gadget this time around. (If I read you right).

Its not so much the form and 'reality' of the gadget, but how we might be able to use it.

Personally, I would throw out the numbers ... less significance. And put the astrological sequence above the kabbalistic. But that's just me.

But then there IS the matter of the alchemical sequence to consider - as Aeon has pointed out.


DAMN TAROT! Why wont its structure fit neatly into all the systems ! ? :laugh:

I guess we need to be a little more flexible with that structure depending on our application ?

(I still dont see it as any 'Double Loop in the Zodiac' though (as Crowley claimed) and certainly not ; " ... the most convincing evidence possible that the Book of the Law is a genuine message from the Secret Chiefs." )