Tarot, gypsies, and qabala...

ravenest

I am with Crowley's stance on the issues of the origin of Tarot.

"The origin of this pack of card is very obscure. Some authorities seek to put it back as far as the ancient Egyptian Mysteries; others try to bring it forward as the fifteenth or even sixteenth century. ....

There is here no need to enter into any discussion of these disputed points. " - The Book of Thoth, pp. 3, A. Crowley

Well, there has been quiet a bit of research done since that old boy, post-Victorian writing, and things now are a lot clearer than any research would have thrown up back then.

Besides, I dont see any stance AC took there; he presented the two extreme polarities of opinions ... and that wasnt what he really wanted to write about ; " There is HERE no need to enter into ... " (my emphasis )

But HERE ... and with the topic of this thread, there IS a need to enter into it (check the OP and title) . If you feel there isnt, or you dont want to ..... ummmm .... dont then .
 

Zephyros

Of course history and research is not conducted like this. It need more than one writing and one person's work - other research, information, records, artifacts, other authors.

I agree, as per my Herodotus example. He was a very important historian, but notoriously unreliable. No credible historian today would base themselves completely on him.

So, okay then, what is the difference between those two ?

I actually think there is a difference, but it requires a certain amount of mental gymnastics. We seem to agree that the merging of Tarot and Kabbalah was a "discovery," in essence, parallels were found and exploited. This would seem to suggest that the original makers of Tarot were at least indirectly influenced by any number of Hermetic ideas. They may even have been Masons. That theory would, indeed, link Tarot through the "golden chain" back to antiquity.

However, that account, while compelling, is fiction and does not fit the historical narrative. Tarot decks did not always have 22 Trumps nor four Courts, either. The Minors, too, went through many permutations until they more or less stabilized to what we recognize as Tarot today. The golden chain, in this case, while present, is due to arbitrary chains of events. In certain decks the allmighty archetypes of Tarot we all venerate are replaced by others, and those are just as inherent to those decks as the Majors we know are to our own heavily structured decks. In a different timeline, Tarot could have stabilized at 23 or 26 or 80 Trumps, and would never have been discovered by occultists.

So, still, while I am aware of the difference, I still think that in this specific question, there is none, because you can't separate fancy from fact. However, it is still possible to put Tarot history aside, for occult purposes.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned a Crowley quote where he speaks of chess. The rules of chess are simple, its gameplay archaic. But it is because of that, that it is so good and works so well that it stopped evolving centuries ago, that sophisticated games are possible. Its inventors would not have to be chess masters in order to invent it, they did "better than they knew." So did the makers of Tarot.
 

foolMoon

Well, there has been quiet a bit of research done since that old boy, post-Victorian writing, and things now are a lot clearer than any research would have thrown up back then.

Besides, I dont see any stance AC took there; he presented the two extreme polarities of opinions ... and that wasnt what he really wanted to write about ; " There is HERE no need to enter into ... " (my emphasis )

But HERE ... and with the topic of this thread, there IS a need to enter into it (check the OP and title) . If you feel there isnt, or you dont want to ..... ummmm .... dont then .


Misunderstanding again. I gave my views on the origin of Tarot, but clos asked me to read other people's research and review on the history of Tarot, which I said I am not interested in History of Tarot, as my stance is not to dispute about it.
 

foolMoon

So, okay then, what is the difference between those two ?

History is, first of all, a subject. It has scopes, beginnings and endings, criticisms and views, hence bias as well.

Origin of something is, spiritual or conceptual connection of something to its birth or foundation.
 

Teheuti

Since intuitions tend to be heavily colored by a person's biases, opinions, fantasies and misconceptions without the benefit of testing, critique or factual evidence, then an intuited 'origin of Tarot' would be a critique-less, evidence-less, fact-less personal opinion or fantasy - not any better or worse than anyone else's contradictory opinion or fantasy. It's merely a story.

This is not to say that it can't be the starting point for research, as it can be and often is.

It's sort of like one's "intuition" that global warming is or is not affected by the actions of human beings. One's "intuition" means nothing until tested and facts gathered. When intuition and opinion flies in the face of facts—denying the worth of those facts—then decisions and laws are made that can be harmful.