ravenest
Come on Gregory ... you KNOW that they also had Stele and stone tablets to make their Tarot cards on
- And you thought shuffling a large size Thoth deck was hard!
Tarot, gypsies, and qabala...
Come on Gregory ... you KNOW that they also had Stele and stone tablets to make their Tarot cards on
- And you thought shuffling a large size Thoth deck was hard!
Mallah
Yeah, not to mention for toilet paper! *grimace*
Debra
There is a real historical basis for the claim of "Egyptian" orgins of playing cards. The "Mamluk cards" are apparently the inspiration for European playing cards (no trumps--just the pips and court cards). The Mamluk territory included Egypt.
Here's more: http://www.wopc.co.uk/egypt/mamluk/index.html
http://www.wopc.co.uk/assets/files/moorish.pdf
Here's more: http://www.wopc.co.uk/egypt/mamluk/index.html
http://www.wopc.co.uk/assets/files/moorish.pdf
gregory
And here:
http://www.manteia-online.dk/deckreviews/dr002.htm
They too are 15th century though - so seem to have popped up at about the same time as the Sforza decks... Chicken, egg; egg, chicken. And no trumps.
http://www.manteia-online.dk/deckreviews/dr002.htm
Frank Jensen said:
They too are 15th century though - so seem to have popped up at about the same time as the Sforza decks... Chicken, egg; egg, chicken. And no trumps.
Rosanne
It is interesting the so called aphorisms written in Arabic? on the cards.
On what we might call the Ace of Cups is the inscription.....
“As for the present that rejoices, thy heart will soon open up“
Sounds very predictive to me.
Well I love these cards, and am very fortunate to have a copy. Purchased at great cost.
~Rosanne
On what we might call the Ace of Cups is the inscription.....
“As for the present that rejoices, thy heart will soon open up“
Sounds very predictive to me.
Well I love these cards, and am very fortunate to have a copy. Purchased at great cost.
~Rosanne
Debra
Yes. One might speculate whether the wise sayings, aphorisms and advice on the Mamluk cards are related to the use of European cards for fortune telling. Rosanne is the first to point this out, to my knowledge--quite a profound insight I think
As for the tarot trumps--the Arab culture led the world in astronomy and mathematics.
So I am proposing, I guess, that it is a mistake to assume that the "Egyptian link" is nothing more than imagination or a crackpot invention. There's a basis for the idea.
As for the tarot trumps--the Arab culture led the world in astronomy and mathematics.
So I am proposing, I guess, that it is a mistake to assume that the "Egyptian link" is nothing more than imagination or a crackpot invention. There's a basis for the idea.
ravenest
Some say the beginning of the Enlightenment and Renaissance was bought about by the influx of Islamic Hermetic Science into Europe via Sicily and Spain (and the return of the Crusaders). If this is the case it is not a hard stretch of the imagination to work the whole thing backwards tracing where that knowledge came from (but I have a very stretchy imagination ).
Going backwards; various Islamic courts and 'universities' - Harran - Alexandrian Syncretism (from Greek, Egyptian, Zoroastrian and other systems). Some of these had a decan based system of astrology. The 'flavour' of each decan could have been noted on a card, then that could have been referenced to a zodiac sign and element. Later they evolved to Tarot cards (first arriving in the areas of importation; Italy and Spain.) - Zoroastrian fortune cookie anyone?
How's that for putting the horse before the cart?
but who knows?
Where did they get those pesky Majors from? How long after this time did Renaissance Europe encounter Kabbalah?
).Going backwards; various Islamic courts and 'universities' - Harran - Alexandrian Syncretism (from Greek, Egyptian, Zoroastrian and other systems). Some of these had a decan based system of astrology. The 'flavour' of each decan could have been noted on a card, then that could have been referenced to a zodiac sign and element. Later they evolved to Tarot cards (first arriving in the areas of importation; Italy and Spain.) - Zoroastrian fortune cookie anyone?
How's that for putting the horse before the cart?
but who knows?Where did they get those pesky Majors from? How long after this time did Renaissance Europe encounter Kabbalah?
Rosanne
This is not exactly the right place....
Well it seems that the Mamluk cards had a more Eastern Origin, but they certainly made them their own. They are not 'Egyptian' as we understand 'Egyptian' today. They certainly seemed to be predictive in an odd way. They also seem a little Astrological, but I am no expert in Poetry from the East. It would seem to me that The Italians (in general) would not have understood the Arabic writings and maybe the concept was explained, and these 16 or possibly more became the 'Majors' ?
Here is my interpretation from the misinformed(apparently) translation of the cards at the translators table. It must be remembered that originally it was thought the cards had 4 leaders, which were in fact only 3.
Also from the Plaques of Homes and businesses of the Mamluks came Western Heraldry.
In the mamluk cards, there are four suits; Numerals 1-10 and three Leaders.
The four suits are
Darahim or Coins
Suyat or Swords and Sabres
Jawkan or Polo sticks
Tuman or holders of many =myriad
There are three leaders
Malik or King, Naib or Viceroy, Naib Thani or 2nd Viceroy.
=52 Cards---47 are existing.
There is 16 aphorisms or stanza of Arabic poetry. The gist of what each says is brief, as there are many rules in Arabic poetry, that are hard to explain in English.
What has been deciphered is not exactly clear, but basically
King of Myriads we might call Cups :With the sword of happiness I shall redeem a beloved who will afterwards take my life.
Viceroy of Myriads : O thou who hast possessions, remain happy and thou shalt have a pleasant life.
2nd Viceroy: Let it come to me, because acquired good is durable; it rejoices me with all its utility.
King of Swords: As for the present that rejoices, thy heart will soon open up.
Viceroy of Swords: I will, as pearls on a string, be lifted in the hands of kings.
2nd Viceroy :May God give thee prosperity; then thou will already have achieved thy aim.
King of Polo Sticks: Rejoice in the pleasant things and the success of the objects.
Viceroy of Polo Sticks: I am as a flower, a string of pearls is my soil.
2nd Viceroy: The alif rejoices and fulfils your wishes (maybe Alif is like a Geni)
King of Coins: Look how wonderful my game is and my dress extraordinarily beautiful.
Viceroy of Coins: I am as a garden, the like of which will never exist.
2nd Viceroy: O my heart, for thee the good news that rejoices.
There are four left over:
Cups? Pleasures for the soul and agreeable things, in my colours there are all kinds.
Swords? Rejoice for thy lasting happiness.
Polo Sticks? Whosoever will call me to his happiness, he will only see joyful looks.
Coins? Rejoice for thy lasting happiness.
Could these be Aces or Ones? They are not Queens! Queens were an Italian invention.
As I cannot read Arabic I cannot, for myself assign the Maxims/stanzas to particular cards; I have to take the translation and places at face value.
Anyway they do sound like Fortune Cookies.
~Rosanne
Well it seems that the Mamluk cards had a more Eastern Origin, but they certainly made them their own. They are not 'Egyptian' as we understand 'Egyptian' today. They certainly seemed to be predictive in an odd way. They also seem a little Astrological, but I am no expert in Poetry from the East. It would seem to me that The Italians (in general) would not have understood the Arabic writings and maybe the concept was explained, and these 16 or possibly more became the 'Majors' ?
Here is my interpretation from the misinformed(apparently) translation of the cards at the translators table. It must be remembered that originally it was thought the cards had 4 leaders, which were in fact only 3.
Also from the Plaques of Homes and businesses of the Mamluks came Western Heraldry.
In the mamluk cards, there are four suits; Numerals 1-10 and three Leaders.
The four suits are
Darahim or Coins
Suyat or Swords and Sabres
Jawkan or Polo sticks
Tuman or holders of many =myriad
There are three leaders
Malik or King, Naib or Viceroy, Naib Thani or 2nd Viceroy.
=52 Cards---47 are existing.
There is 16 aphorisms or stanza of Arabic poetry. The gist of what each says is brief, as there are many rules in Arabic poetry, that are hard to explain in English.
What has been deciphered is not exactly clear, but basically
King of Myriads we might call Cups :With the sword of happiness I shall redeem a beloved who will afterwards take my life.
Viceroy of Myriads : O thou who hast possessions, remain happy and thou shalt have a pleasant life.
2nd Viceroy: Let it come to me, because acquired good is durable; it rejoices me with all its utility.
King of Swords: As for the present that rejoices, thy heart will soon open up.
Viceroy of Swords: I will, as pearls on a string, be lifted in the hands of kings.
2nd Viceroy :May God give thee prosperity; then thou will already have achieved thy aim.
King of Polo Sticks: Rejoice in the pleasant things and the success of the objects.
Viceroy of Polo Sticks: I am as a flower, a string of pearls is my soil.
2nd Viceroy: The alif rejoices and fulfils your wishes (maybe Alif is like a Geni)
King of Coins: Look how wonderful my game is and my dress extraordinarily beautiful.
Viceroy of Coins: I am as a garden, the like of which will never exist.
2nd Viceroy: O my heart, for thee the good news that rejoices.
There are four left over:
Cups? Pleasures for the soul and agreeable things, in my colours there are all kinds.
Swords? Rejoice for thy lasting happiness.
Polo Sticks? Whosoever will call me to his happiness, he will only see joyful looks.
Coins? Rejoice for thy lasting happiness.
Could these be Aces or Ones? They are not Queens! Queens were an Italian invention.
As I cannot read Arabic I cannot, for myself assign the Maxims/stanzas to particular cards; I have to take the translation and places at face value.
Anyway they do sound like Fortune Cookies.
~Rosanne
gregory
Yes. One might speculate whether the wise sayings, aphorisms and advice on the Mamluk cards are related to the use of European cards for fortune telling. Rosanne is the first to point this out, to my knowledge--quite a profound insight I think
As for the tarot trumps--the Arab culture led the world in astronomy and mathematics.
So I am proposing, I guess, that it is a mistake to assume that the "Egyptian link" is nothing more than imagination or a crackpot invention. There's a basis for the idea.
Oh sure - but the idea that the whole thing comes from ancient secret Egyptian teachings and the rest is - well, not on my radar anyway. On the other hand - the underlying common base for all mythology could also feature here.
I had no idea the cards contained that level of prediction - thanks, Rosanne.
Rev_Vesta
I pondered this question with my Guide and this is what I have been given.....
This is a thought, an opinion.......
"Where did Tarot Begin?"
Tarot began before ink and card, before copper plates, printing press, before watercolours and oils, pens (quills) and ink.
before The papayrus and natural colours by crystals and plants
Tarot began before it was even known as Tarot.
Tarot began as messages from Visions, messages from Spirit Guides- symbols, colours, astrological systems and numbers.
They were seperate systems that have grown, merged together to create what we know today, just as The Quabalah has merged with Tarot on many levels. They have created a tool to assist us on our journey.
Tarot has been created by many cultures, No one Culture can attest to Tarot.
It is like a butterfly coming out of a cocoon, being allowed to fly free on its own journey.
Do not limit your beliefs on the origin of Tarot as there is truly none....that is recorded accurately.... None that can truly say tarot began Here at this time on this day from this culture........It began from many thoughts, many possibilites......
Enjoy the journey of what it is today and of what you make of it tomorrow, not of what was yesteryear........
Blessings...........
This is a thought, an opinion.......
"Where did Tarot Begin?"
Tarot began before ink and card, before copper plates, printing press, before watercolours and oils, pens (quills) and ink.
before The papayrus and natural colours by crystals and plants
Tarot began before it was even known as Tarot.
Tarot began as messages from Visions, messages from Spirit Guides- symbols, colours, astrological systems and numbers.
They were seperate systems that have grown, merged together to create what we know today, just as The Quabalah has merged with Tarot on many levels. They have created a tool to assist us on our journey.
Tarot has been created by many cultures, No one Culture can attest to Tarot.
It is like a butterfly coming out of a cocoon, being allowed to fly free on its own journey.
Do not limit your beliefs on the origin of Tarot as there is truly none....that is recorded accurately.... None that can truly say tarot began Here at this time on this day from this culture........It began from many thoughts, many possibilites......
Enjoy the journey of what it is today and of what you make of it tomorrow, not of what was yesteryear........
Blessings...........
